You could be the best psychologist, but if you have Comic Sans and childish colors and whatever in your.

In your graphics, people aren't going to take you seriously for what you do.

The great Mark Cuban once said, business happens over years and years.

Value is measured in the total upside of a business relationship, not by how much you squeezed out in any one deal.

And we couldn't agree more.

This is the business of Development Podcast.

Based in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada and broadcasting to the world.

You'll get expert business development advice, tips and experiences and you'll hear interviews with business owners, CEOs and business development reps. You'll get actionable advice on how to grow business.

Brought to you by Capital.

Business Development capitalbd ca.

Let's do it.

Welcome to the Business Development Podcast.

And now your expert host, Kelly Kennedy.

Hello.

Welcome to episode 375 of the Business Development Podcast.

And today it is my absolute pleasure to bring you Katie Dooley.

Katie is the founder and creative director of Paperlime Creative, an Edmonton based design, branding and public relations agency known for bold creativity and deep collaboration.

As the lead graphic designer and branding specialist, Katie doesn't just create beautiful brands, she teaches entrepreneurs how to use them with intention.

Her participatory education first approach ensures clients understand how to leverage their visual identity to build trust, clarity and momentum, not just consistency.

From dreaming of being an artist at age 3 to winning awards for her branding work, Katie's career has always been driven by curiosity, care and craft.

She founded Paper Lime Creative to help entrepreneurs pursue their vision with confidence and show up looking as strong as the ideas behind their business.

At her core, Katie believes that great branding isn't just about esthetics alone.

It's about empowerment, impact and giving people the tools to stand tall with whatever they are building.

Katie, an honor and a privilege to have you on the show today.

Oh, thank you so much for having me, Kelly.

What a great intro.

Well, we should just maybe like caveat this by like saying you also do our work.

Yeah,.

We appreciate you greatly.

And we love working with you, Kelly.

I'm, you know, I mean, I'm excited to dive deep because, you know, while we know each other on a bit of a surface level, I'm excited to get to know better.

Who is Katie Dooley and how the heck did you end up on this journey and you know, hopefully lead into what the heck's going on in the marketing world and what can we expect over the next year, year and a half.

So really excited to get into that with you.

But of course, as Always.

Who the heck is Katie Dooley?

How in the world did you end up the entrepreneur you are today?

Oh, that's a really big question.

I guess we could start with graphic design and how I even got into the graphic design industry.

And I love.

In your intro.

Yep.

I.

Three years old, I thought I wanted to be an artist, you know, when you're three.

Yeah.

I'm not sure that I.

You know, I mean, my drawing is about as good at three as it is today.

So.

It's.

A good thing I didn't become an artist.

And after.

Yeah.

I.

It's so distinctly.

Remember in school I used to love projects that had a visual component.

So book reports, when you had to do a cover page or.

I remember a project.

It was a book project in grade four, but we had to do like a little.

It was like a little advertising campaign for it.

And all the way to high school, we had to do a Time magazine for Social Studies 20, I think on World War II.

And I just loved making the things look good.

Yeah.

I was also a diligent student, so the information was accurate and got good grades there.

But I had so much fun just sitting and making things look good.

Nice.

And I realized that that was a career.

I took a.

It's changed since.

But I took communication technology at Harry and Lee High School here in Edmonton and that really got me on my trajectory to being a designer.

I went to university for graphic design and so, yeah, it was a natural choice to pursue it as a career.

And it's a hard career to pursue.

Yeah.

I know there's a lot of careers that are tough.

I can't imagine having to go to med school or something.

But especially in smaller centers.

Edmonton's not that small in the grand scheme of Canada, but in the grand scheme of the world, a smaller city, there isn't necessarily a lot of opportunity from the sort of ad agency madman style in Canada.

You're looking at Toronto and Vancouver for big jobs like that.

Yeah.

And between the.

All the programs here, they graduate.

I did the math once.

They probably graduate about 200 students a year and there aren't 200 jobs to be had a year.

Yeah.

So there's a lot of grind and attrition and just waiting to be the last one standing.

And when I was in my 20s, I had this realization that nobody was going to give me the opportunity.

I had to make my own opportunity because I would apply to all these jobs.

And I said if someone just gave me a chance, like I'm good at what I Do I'm a.

Got a good work ethic.

I'd be great for their team.

And it was just.

Yeah, there just aren't the opportunities necessarily.

So I pursued two different courses of action at the same time, trying to get hired in house at a company I was working for.

It was a larger corporation.

And then I also started freelancing on the side.

And I said, one of these two things will take off and I'll just pursue what does.

And so what is now Paperlime Creative was the one that took off first, and that was in 2017.

Amazing.

Amazing.

So at this point, what you are nearly 10 years.

You're 10 years?

Pretty much,.

Yeah.

We have our ninth anniversary.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, by.

The time people are hearing this.

Show.

Yeah, I was like, at the time of recording, we're just coming on our ninth anniversary.

But I know you record,.

But by the time you hear this show, great listener.

We're at 10.

10.

We're at 10 years.

That's kind of.

Cool.

Yeah, it's wild.

And, you know, congratulations on that, by the way.

That's impressive.

And especially in a creative industry, you know, I often look at, like, some of the people that I hire to, like, do my audio stuff or things like that, and it's like, I'm a little more picky with those things, Katie.

And I'm just like, oh, my gosh, I'm thankful that's not me, because it's like, I want something, and I don't know how to explain it.

I was having this conversation, though, with my.

My designer on my team, Emma, and she was saying, but if you could explain it, you would do it, right?

And some people are so, like, apologetic about the napkin drawing.

And I'm like, but if you could do it another way, you would have done it.

And we love napkin drawings because then we do get an idea of what you're looking for, and then we'll clean it up and make it look great.

Yeah, Yeah.

I love that.

I love that because I know, like, for me, for instance, right now, I'm right now in the middle of creating our intro outro music for the new show.

I used to work there, and I, in my mind, I think I know what I want.

But trying to explain that, not to mention it's like the person that I'm hiring ultimately has their own creative style that they use and that, like, they're comfortable with.

And it's.

It's not easy.

Like, creative work is not easy because the person hiring you probably has some level of idea of what it is they're after, but has no way of explaining to you exactly what it is.

And so, like, so much that is like, okay, I need to just trust that Katie's gonna do the right thing here.

And so far, it's worked every time.

We haven't.

It's been nice and easy, but, like, I know there's gotta be clients who.

That is not an easy process.

And it's like, how do you handle that?

Like, when you're working with clients and, like, you just can't seem to get on the same page.

And it's like.

It's like, literally neither of your fault.

Because trying to explain something creative or design is really hard.

Yeah.

And that was, fortunately, a lesson I learned quite early on in my career is just people define words differently.

Right.

What you think is sophisticated, I might think is gaudy or ostentatious or luxurious.

Right.

What we all have these different words, so that is something that we can go back to is, like, what do you actually think is sophisticated?

You're saying it's sophisticated and I don't like it, or I don't agree with that.

Check out Google images or stock photography sites and pull things that you think are luxurious so we can get into the same visual language.

That's always a good step.

Sometimes it's figuring out what the goal of the piece is.

That can happen a lot where a person has a vision and they want to attract someone, and what they envision won't attract that person.

So we have to have that conversation of, you know, it's great that your favorite color is pink, but you're talking to oil field workers.

So there's the.

And that's part of the reason I love design so much.

I was never much of a fine artist because I love the technical side and sort of this, like, puzzle piece side of it that maybe there's not a right answer, but there's always a better answer.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Let's talk a little bit about that.

Because I think when most people have an idea, like, and I'll use me as an example when I have an idea of something that I need, I'll just kind of reach out and be like, katie, I need help with this.

I think this is what I want.

Can you this for me?

Right.

But I feel like even though I think I've given you good information, I think internally, I know that, like, I feel like I should have given her more information.

But I don't know.

It's like, I don't realize at the time, all of the things that I should be giving you.

Right.

I guess the question that I have for you is this.

If a company is looking to do, like you said, a graphic design campaign, let's say that they're doing an advertising campaign, something like that, do you find that they're coming to you way too late in the process and that maybe that process should really involve the graphic design agency from the very beginning, through.

Every.

Step of that planning process?

Absolutely.

And I mean, we do branding in addition to graphic design.

And branding is one of the first steps a business should take before any other marketing.

And we also are quite strategic as well.

So.

And I can't speak for every graphic designer because everyone's a little bit different, but we're quite strategic as well.

So if we can come in as early as possible and give some ideas, even things that people don't realize are possible with things like print or other advertising mediums.

Right.

If we can get in as soon as possible, then we can say like, hey, maybe a bus bench or a billboard makes sense.

And that might be something the companies never even thought possible for them.

Bring me into branding because it is something that comes up on this show.

But you know what?

I think probably the last time we talked branding on the show was probably 100 episodes ago, just so you're aware.

Okay,.

Bring us into branding.

Like, what is branding and what does it mean in 2026?

I always describe branding as how it's broadly how your company is perceived by everyone, and I love framing it that way, as opposed to ideal customers, which is very important to branding.

But you can use branding as a tool both to attract and detract people.

So we have to keep branding in mind for how everyone perceives our business.

It's.

I forget who said it.

It might have been Jeff Bezos.

What people say about your business when you're not in the room, it's that presence.

Like when you think of Apple, I know I think of expensive but minimalist and sleek and I know it's going to work.

Way too, way too expensive to get more hard drive space.

Right.

My husband just did that.

And.

Right.

So it's what we think about businesses.

And Apple's a great case because some people look at and go, that's too expensive for my taste.

And that is how they're detracting people from their brand.

So, yeah, in 2026, I think it's just really important that branding should be customer focused.

Who do you want to buy from you is really the biggest question you should be asking yourselves.

Yourself and then tailoring.

I mean, we do the visuals.

Visual aspect of it, but visuals, messaging, social media content, web content, video content, sound to that person that you want to be buying from you or engaging with you.

Yeah, it's a big.

It's a big process.

Right.

And it's.

It's a lot of things.

I think when most people think about, like, incorporating their business for the first time, they're like, oh, I need a logo.

And that's about as far as it gets.

I need a name, I need a website, and I need a logo.

But like, the rest of it also is absolutely critical when people are starting companies, because I think, Katie, we're probably talking to a lot of people today who might be launching their very first company.

Walk us through all of the pieces that a brand actually needs in order to function properly.

Yeah, this will expand as anyone grows.

But I recommend when you're starting out, yes, your logo, you want your brand colors and font.

So what colors are used consistently?

Coca Cola Red is a great one to talk about because it's recognized globally.

What fonts are you using?

Who your ideal customer is?

Those things should come based on who your ideal customer is.

You should have some sort of messaging in place, even if it's just sort of a voice guide.

Right.

Are we really bold in the way we write or write or speak?

Are we really professional in the way we write or speak?

Some thought into where to be on social media?

You don't need to be everywhere.

You need to be where your client is.

I almost.

I only post on LinkedIn because that's where,.

Yeah,.

My people are.

And then I would have some sort of idea for photography.

Is it black and white?

Is it moody?

Is it bright?

And then that would translate into things like video as well.

I think that's probably a good foundation.

Of course, as you expand, you gotta think about things like what your T shirts are gonna look like.

But.

Yeah,.

First starting out in your business, I'd say that's probably a pretty good list.

Okay.

Okay.

Yeah, I think it's.

I think it's interesting because when you think about a company and a brand, it's like the brand itself is actually separate from maybe even the company.

Or, like.

I know that's very weird.

That's like a weird way of explaining it.

But, like, for instance, I have a business development firm, but, like, everything to do with capital is, like, you know, fairly professional.

And then on the other side of things, with the bdp, we're a lot more fun.

We're a lot More like, let's just go with the flow.

And then with I used to work there, we've gone in like a completely different direction and it's just a lot more like wild and crazy and exciting.

Exciting and fun.

But it's just weird because all of those things are actually part of the same company.

As weird as that is.

Right.

Like, they're all branches within the same company.

That is capital, business development.

But like, we do so many different things and each thing has a different feel to it.

Totally.

And sometimes that's just company structure.

Right.

We're shouldn't say just paper line, but we, that we.

That's what we do is our graphic design branding.

We don't have branches.

But you think of big international companies like Unilever that have all these sub brands underneath that.

Yeah, absolutely.

They are branded differently and advertised differently and.

But it's all very intentional and strategic.

And I think that's the biggest thing for new business owners.

And you don't need to necessarily jump in with both feet.

I remember what it's like being a new business owner.

Yes.

We pulled in 100 different directions.

But just know that, like, long term, that's where you want to be going, is to sort of the strategic place with your brand.

Yeah, yeah.

It's so funny.

It's like I just find for me, it's the evolution of, like, of me.

Right.

Like, I go through all these things.

Like, when I started capital, I'm like, oh, I need to be this, like, prim and proper and bank, like business development firm or no one's going to believe in me.

Right.

And then with the bdp, it's like, okay, well, now I want to explore like, the entrepreneurship side that could be a little bit more me, a little bit more Kelly in this.

And then like, with like, I used to work there, it's like, okay, I want some place where I can literally just like, throw all the shit on the wall and like, not worry about any of it.

And if I want to be anything else or I want to just be wild and fun, this is the place that I can do it.

And for me, it's like, as I get better at being a business owner, it's like my ability to, like, desire different things in my organization change too.

I think that's also a really interesting even distinction between, like a business brand and a personal brand.

Yeah.

And that's a strategic decision to make too.

And some people, it makes a lot of sense to a personal brand.

And obviously with this podcast, I'd say that's more of a personal brand and with capital, that's more of a corporate brand.

And it just depends a little bit on where you want to be long term and on how you decide to tackle that.

Well, it's so funny, Katie, because, like, you know, I mean, I hate to admit it, I didn't understand anything regarding personal branding when I launched this show.

Right?

Like, to me, I'm like, I'm just going to talk about business development and hopefully someone in Calgary listens.

That would be cool.

It wasn't until like mid 2024, I think, when I started interviewing a lot of people who were like personal branding experts and they're like, yeah, this is what it is.

I'm like, oh, I'm doing that.

That's what's happening here.

And honest, most of my clients are rebrands.

So people with existing brands in place that are just at that stage where they're like, oh, I didn't either know what I was doing or wasn't ready for it.

And now I comprehend this bigger business picture.

So now we need to rebrand.

And that's especially service based businesses, product based businesses.

Obviously, if you're manufacturing something, need a little more of that upfront.

But I typically when people ask me who my ideal customer is, typically it's kind of at that five year mark, that first big transition where you're leveling up and you have learned all these things and now you know that, now you know what you don't know and you know you can't do it all.

Yeah, yeah, no kidding, right?

That whole like finite time thing is really biting me in the ass.

Yeah.

How come we can't just stand for 24 hours?

It's so funny.

It's so funny because I look back to being an employee and as an employee, like, I hate to say this, I like did not know how to manage my time.

Right?

Like, I had no idea how to.

Like, I think I did.

But like, I look back now and it's like, no, I'm like micromanaging every hour of my life these days as an entrepreneur just to get everything done that I want to get done.

And even then I can't.

And so it's like, katie, I need your help.

But it's like, but it's surprising, right?

Like, I think being an entrepreneur really does put you in that space where you learn to value time in a way that you just never could without being one.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

And I think also valuing skills, right?

I think those kind of go hand in hand and My very first hire, I guess, was a bookkeeper.

I was like one year in business and I knew I couldn't afford it, but I also knew that it would take me forever and I would hate every minute of bookkeeping.

Yeah.

And so it gets done far better with no time on my part.

And I think, yeah, there's definitely a stage where you realize dividing and conquering and getting good people in the right spots will move the needle forward a lot faster.

Yeah, a hundred percent.

My.

My sister is our bookkeeper.

Has been forever.

She, in all fairness, she had a bookkeeping company long before I started my company.

But my God, like, yeah, I've never had to do it, Katie.

And like, I can't imagine if I had to add that to my plate right now, I would lose my mind.

I know.

And I. Yeah, I'm at the point where myself.

Where I'm like, what can I pass off to other people?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, why don't we.

Why don't we talk about that?

About, you know, passing things off to other people?

Because you really paper line creative is really about that.

I think most entrepreneurs are like me.

They start out and they're like, how much of this can I do on my own?

And then eventually it's like, oh, shit, I don't have time.

But I still need to keep up with my social media.

I still need to think about what's next.

I still need to, like, pick fonts and build products and build sponsor announcements.

Right.

And it's just one of those things where, yeah.

You were the very first graphic design person that I reached out to.

I'm like, Katie, like, I need help.

Like, I can't do all of this on my own.

And it really did come from a place of, like, I just can't.

I actually can't keep up.

And I need that extra help.

Let's talk about, you know, the choice to outsource your design.

I'm biased, so obviously I think it's a very good one.

I think the results.

Here's what I see is that a lot of people are spending time on Canva, and I mean, like, hours of time on Canva.

And this is not to.

Not Canva, but it's not professional software.

And I'm sure, you know, from audio editing that the better the software, the faster things go.

Sure.

And the better results you get.

Yeah.

And I mean, I'll make Canva templates for people.

I think I made some for you.

Yeah.

It takes me even a long time in Canva because it just doesn't have the functionality so I can bang something out for a client in half the time and it will be a better result because I'm using professional software.

And so everyone wins.

Right.

You get your time back and your time is probably equal to what you would have paid me.

Right.

Doing what you're actually good at and you're going to get a better result in the end.

So win.

Win.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think, like, the other side to that conversation is this.

And I'll make a little bit of a devil's advocate here.

You do exceptional work, and I think that there's, like, there's a place for exceptional work, but I think there's also a place for just getting content out there.

And one of the things that I've kind of learned as an entrepreneur and now I'm like, in this, like, social media space with the BDP and all the stuff that we do, is that the use case for Canva is the ability to create something in an hour, a half an hour, and get it out there in a time when you just need to get some content out there a lot of the time.

Like, I think many companies, their problem isn't necessarily the type of content they're putting out, although we know corporate content is not doing well.

Like, that's just.

Nobody's surprised by that, I don't think.

But what I can say is this, is that podcasting is a content game.

It's how much can you pump out?

How many episodes can you do each week?

More is more is more.

And I think in the way of social media, it's the same thing.

So what would you say is, like, the balance?

Right.

Because I do think that entrepreneurs need to have at least a base level skill on how to create some types of content for their business.

Would you not agree with that?

Absolutely.

And I think that's where, like, a good branding strategy comes in place.

So when we do deliverables, we give marketing examples, we give your colors, we give your fonts.

Yeah.

We have a couple examples on how to throw things together to expedite that process and keep things consistent and strategic.

Absolutely.

I'm a big fan of done is better than perfect because.

Yeah, yeah.

And I. I think people forget.

You can always come back.

Oh, yeah.

Like, yeah,.

Right now I have a client and she has a very tight deadline.

We have this project that needs to be due Monday.

We're still waiting on content.

I do have it on my.

My Monday is blocked off for her when I receive the content, so it can get done on Monday.

Yeah.

And I, I, because of the deadline, I don't think it's going to be 100 what she envisioned.

But I said it will be done and you can get it out to where you need to get it out.

Yeah.

And then let's take the following next three or four weeks and get it to perfection.

Yeah, yeah.

And I think people, yes, there's a cost to it, but I think sometimes people are scared.

Either their vision isn't fleshed out or they don't have a lot of time.

But I would love to.

I'm happy to get something 80% of the way there.

And if she were to do it, she might only get it 50% of the way there.

Yeah.

And she would spend a lot more.

It's a quite involved project.

She would spend a ton of time on it because I've spent.

And, and like, you can always revise.

Right.

There's very few things.

I'm not saying it's not possible, but I want to change the job title on my business card.

Well, that, the next print run, I'm going to change the job title on my business card.

Like, it's fine.

I'll need business cards.

I printed a thousand.

I'll need business cards one day.

You're like, next year.

Yeah, I'll.

Need new business cards one day.

And we'll make that change then, or whatever it is.

There's always opportunity.

There's very few things it, I get.

Printing costs money, but there's very few things that are permanent that you can't redo or revisit.

So that's sort of my, you know, if you have to do it yourself or if you have to design, hire a designer.

It's not quite a hundred percent.

Revisit it when you have more time or more vision or now, you know, what you didn't know before.

Well, and I think that's the answer.

Right?

Like if, if you, everything you do in business is a learning experience.

Every single thing, even the things that, like, didn't go a hundred percent to plan.

Right.

You either learned that actually that worked and I'm cool with that now, or.

Yeah, there was a reason why I wanted it a step a step further.

And now I know next time to make it a step further.

Right.

Man, if I, like, if I, like, got down on myself for everything that didn't go to plan, you know, with capital, with the show, I would just, I would have quit forever ago.

But I think I reframed a lot of my thinking, too.

That didn't work.

Okay.

Now I know, or that worked.

And I thought I had to do way more than that.

Okay, we're good.

Let's keep going.

Right.

Everything is a learning experience.

Everything.

The failures, too.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

I forget where I heard this.

Probably on an Instagram Brielle.

That the number one statistic or like the number one characteristic of a successful entrepreneur is grit.

It's not education or resources or not.

Yeah.

It's just tenacity.

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely.

Just being stubborn enough not to quit.

It's.

Yeah, it's interesting.

And then, you know what?

I'm going to speak to some of the entrepreneurs too.

The ones that chose to quit is equally brave.

I think that's like, that's something that a lot of people are not talking about in the entrepreneurial space.

I know some entrepreneurs who.

Who decided to close their businesses and to taking a job.

And I think that in a lot of cases, that is harder.

That's actually harder than forcing your way through the.

To get to the other side.

Because I think so many people tie entrepreneurship to their identity.

Especially people like me and you.

Right.

Like, I'm.

I'm on my fifth year.

You're in your tenth.

Right.

Like, it's.

It's a part of who we are now.

Like, it's a part of what made us who we are today.

And so I think I want to acknowledge the people who.

Who do choose to fold in the towel as well, because I don't think they get enough acknowledgment for the bravery it does take to do that.

And nobody talks about how hard this is.

No, Me and Shelby were literally just talking about that at the kitchen table at lunchtime.

I was like, for goodness sakes, this entrepreneurship thing, like, it's really hard.

And only other entrepreneurs know.

Your employed friends have no idea.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And actually, it's so funny because I, you know, I gotta admit, I was.

I was watching a movie with Shelby on Monday, One Life.

I don't know if you've watched it yet on Netflix.

It's.

It's Anthony Hopkins.

It's about a man who saved a bunch of kids during the Holocaust.

It's an amazing movie.

But there's a part in that movie where the parents are loading their kids onto a train and they're actually sending them to England, and.

And it may be the last time they ever see them.

And I just, like, I melted down like, I'm a dad and I just.

I can't watch this.

Like, it's just too hard to watch.

And I think that's.

It falls into the exact same category.

Whereas, like, when I wasn't a dad, that wouldn't have, like.

Yeah, I know it's sad, but I don't feel it right as a dad now I can feel that pain and how hard that would be to just like to say goodbye to your kid and not know if you're ever going to see them again.

So I think you know what you were saying, too.

It's like, you have to know it.

Absolutely.

There's times I wish I could stick some employed friends in my shoes for a week.

Well, you know, Katie, there's a spot in Catalyst Club for you anytime.

Okay.

It's all about.

It's all about being surrounded by people who get it.

Right.

Absolutely.

Yeah, it's.

It's interesting.

It's interesting.

Entrepreneurship is just such.

Such its own beast.

But yeah, there's.

There's a lot there and a lot to learn and a lot to know.

And I guess for me, I just find it an endless learning experience.

But maybe taking it back to what I was saying about content, I look at a lot of, like, I have a lot of friends who have shows, and I have a lot of friends who have really good shows, Katie.

Like, shows that blow my production value right out of the.

Right out of the water.

Right.

But my show is still doing better.

And.

And I really believe that my show is doing better.

Not because it's a better produced show, not because I'm a better host, but just because we actually committed to a much higher level of release schedule.

We have like over 300 different shows at this point.

And it really is a content game.

And I guess I kind of wonder, in the social media space, like, you're the social media expert, is it not just the same thing?

A content game?

How much content can you put out in the world.

From a branding perspective?

I think it's realizing what's important to your clients.

Right.

I try to post three times a week on LinkedIn and I don't think more would be benefit people, but I also know that less than once a week is not helpful either.

So I think it's a little bit individual figuring out what works.

And I'm sure for this podcast, some of it is just a guessing game.

When you start out figuring out.

100%.

And you know, for social media, what kind of graphics work do people want to see?

Pictures do people want to see.

Yeah.

Graphics that are created in Canva, do people see videos?

And then I think there is a quality piece that has to.

We have to be sort of Self critical in that.

You know, I think of podcasts, we know when we listen to a podcast, doesn't matter how great the content is, if the audio is, we turn it off,.

Listen to it.

Yeah.

So there's like this threshold and I think it's very much the same for graphics and visuals where you could be the best psychologist, but if you have Comic Sans and childish colors and whatever in your, in your graphics, people aren't going to take you seriously for what you do.

Yeah.

Being able to be a little bit critical, think about what your clients want, maybe even asking your clients, and then watching for things like social media, watching the algorithm and seeing what's connecting.

Because if you're posting constantly and nothing's happening, you're doing something wrong.

Are you trying to tell me that I should stop using Comic Sans?

Oh my goodness.

Probably.

Unless you can.

Just.

Justify your use of Comic Sans to me and I might allow.

It.

Oh, goodness.

Yeah.

I don't know.

You're right.

You're absolutely right.

There is a base level of quality.

Absolutely required.

Absolutely, you're right.

But I do think if you can achieve that base level of quality at that point, it's a numbers game.

It's a numbers game.

How much content can you put out in the world?

And it's so funny because like I've interviewed people who've, who've argued it the other way and said, well, you don't really need that much.

Like you could do like a post or two posts a week and it'll.

But in my experience, like you, I mean, I can only speak from my experience, so I'm always only speaking from Kelly, that I'm not like the, the social media expert in the world.

I'm not.

But what I can say is that what I've learned and from my experience, more is more.

If you can put out more and it's high quality, it's probably for the best.

Yeah, yeah.

I think the key is finding that threshold though, because I've definitely been that girl on Instagram that's like, why am I getting four views and no likes?

And I've never been able to crack the Instagram code personally or for paper line, but we do well on LinkedIn, so that's where we put our time.

Yeah.

And you know, I mean, I'll.

I can only speak to like, for instance, like clips from this episode.

I cannot pick what clips are going to do best.

I have no flipping idea.

We put out like 20 or 30 clips from this show and some are going to be some are going to take off and some are going to get like zero views.

And I have no idea why the ones take off take off and why the ones that got zero views get zero views.

I think a lot of it is actually out of our control.

It's up to the algorithms of the platforms that we happen to be posting on.

Right.

Like you said, Instagram, for whatever reason, might have picked one of your things and not done anything with it on the other one.

It might have showed it to 20,000 people.

No rhyme or reason.

We went viral on LinkedIn last year and I like couldn't believe I didn't think it was that groundbreaking of a post.

And then, and I posted it on a Wednesday and it was like slow.

And then all of a sudden Saturday and Sunday my phone was just blowing up.

Oh, wow.

And I just, I was like, what is going on?

And yeah, so you're right.

Like who?

I have no idea why that particular post captured so many hearts and minds, but.

Yeah, well, and you know, I interviewed Sam Swersky, who basically is a self proclaimed LinkedIn mayor, LinkedIn expert.

Like he's worked for some pretty big names and handled social media for them.

And he said that like, it's a learning experience because LinkedIn actually never stops changing.

So what they would post one week or what they would like what?

The way their algorithm works one week is not necessarily the same way it works the next week or the week after the week after that.

And there's no, like he said, there's like, there's no rule book.

Nobody's saying, oh, we changed this and now this isn't working.

Do this right.

Like maybe unless you work for LinkedIn, but for the rest of us, we don't know how it's operating.

Even the top people doing social media have no idea how it's actually operating.

They're trying different things, trying to understand, but it's like he's like, you can understand or think you get it one week and then the next week it can be something completely different.

So,.

Yeah, I was, Yeah, I was shocked by.

Yeah, I've never gone viral in my life.

I'll probably never go viral again, but at least.

Oh, never say never.

Katie's problem.

Watch this.

Next week.

Paper limes back in the top.

I was gonna say, should we, should we say something controversial for the,.

For.

The likes,.

Maybe on your show?

Okay.

Yeah, speaking of, you're a podcaster too?

Yeah, we've been, yeah, I've been running a show.

For how many?

We're just over a Hundred episodes?

I think 120 episodes.

Yeah, but that's.

It's completely unrelated to my business, but it's been a fun experience, lots of learning.

Why did you choose to be a podcaster?

It was.

So my podcast is Holy Watermelon.

It's a religious studies podcast.

And it was just a structured way to learn about religion.

It's comparative religion.

So it was just kind of the excuse to have these conversations with my co host, Preston, and.

Yeah, it forced us to learn something new every week.

Okay.

Okay.

Well, so you comparative.

So you compare two religions to each other?

No, not necessarily.

Just like, we'll cover everything.

So it's not like a Christianity podcast.

We'll talk.

We've talked about everything from Satanism to Rosicrucianism to.

And back again Judaism and then specific topics.

So we've done episodes on, like, clothing and religion and food and religion and all the holidays that happened in December.

Yeah.

We've just covered the whole gamut.

Well, holy cow.

Maybe we are talking about something a little bit controversial here after all.

Yeah, maybe we're.

So, Katie, let's take it back here to marketing.

Obviously, we're in 2026.

Probably by the time people are hearing this, we're closing in on the end.

But talk to me, what is 2026 look like?

Where are the trends going with regards to marketing?

Is it changing or is it still relatively the same as it's always been?

Well, I'm glad you've prefaced it, because I don't have a crystal ball, so I might say all these things.

That's totally.

Cool.

Wrong.

At the end of the day.

Yeah, man.

My.

My crystal ball has been broken for a while.

Yeah.

We can't talk about marketing and branding and any sort of content creation without talking about AI.

Sure.

I think we'll know we'll see more of it.

I'm not concerned about it.

Yeah.

As of yet.

But I think we'll start seeing a lot more, and I think we'll probably see a greater disparity in quality.

We're gonna.

I think we're gonna see some things that are put out that are a lot worse than we're used to, some things that are put out there a lot better than what we've seen before.

Yeah.

And I think almost whether you use AI or not, I think that'll be a big thing in 2026.

This was controversial.

Was the pantone color of the year picking white?

It's white.

It's.

Oh, yeah.

No, it's cloud dancer.

Okay.

So I Think we'll see.

I don't actually think we'll see.

Cloud.

Dancer,.

You know.

Yeah, Cloud Dancer won't trend this year like they think it will.

I collect all the Pantone Color of the Year mugs, and I'm not going to buy it this year because I'm not going to buy a white mug.

Well, you could just order it from Amazon for three bucks.

Right.

Instead of 30 US dollars from.

Pantone.

So I think we'll probably actually see a lot of color coming up.

I think politically people are a little bit exhausted and I think people are ready for some fun and some nostalgia.

We've seen a lot of trends for nostalgia.

We've gone through, like, the 70s trend and we've seen a bit of the 80s trend, and Gen Z loves the 90s, so I think we'll still see a lot of stuff.

We grew up with being popular again, which hurts my soul a little bit to realize we've come full circle.

So I think that's a big one.

And I think kind of tied to AI.

I think authenticity will be a big thing.

Like, people are going to want to know the people behind businesses and.

Yeah.

Just know that there's a bit of a soul behind whatever they're interacting with.

You know what freaks me out?

I'm 37.

So, like, I've, like, I get that I'm getting older, but I'm not that old yet.

I hate that now when I hop on YouTube or Facebook or Instagram and I see a video and I get it.

They're not perfect.

The AI videos are like, stupid in sometimes, like, to smash together and nothing happens.

Like, I. I get it.

But two things.

One, I'm drawn to them and I watch the stupid video.

I hate it.

I hate that.

The second thing is that I think within a year, we won't be able to tell what's real and what's not.

And that freaks the shit out of me.

That really scares me, Katie, because if I can't tell what's real content, what's actually produced by a person, and what's simply AI generated content, I don't know what to do with that.

Yeah.

And I think, yeah, I think in some ways that's definitely a concern.

I feel like in my world, I don't know if you've seen these memes of like, I've got graphic designer meme pages of like, if you're worried about AI taking your job, remember that it involves the client knowing what to ask for.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah, Fair enough.

Like, that's okay.

Right.

Yeah.

It's that description thing kind of important.

Yeah.

And I.

And this is just like the Internet.

Right.

We know, like, these generative AI models are pulling from sort what's out there.

And even if you just Google real estate logo, you're going to get a page, pages and pages of houses, and house logos are not strategic.

And so if you're a realtor asking ChatGPT for a real estate logo, you're probably going to get a house or a key or something along those lines.

Yeah.

So people are going to be able to tell that.

I mean, just like right now, when we can tell someone's taken a house logo off of a stock photography website, like, it's not interesting or creative.

And so it's.

At least in the short term, that's what Chat generative AI feels like for me.

It's just.

Yeah.

It's spewing out the average and we do exceptional.

Yeah, yeah, No, I know.

I guess what I'm saying is, is that like.

Like I'm watching that stupid video.

Right.

I want to, like.

I don't necessarily want to, like.

It's interesting enough that I clicked the damn thing.

The.

Dopamine is.

The dopamine's there.

I get it.

Yeah.

And it's like, damn it.

Like, another crappy AI video that I've watched.

But, like, every time I do that, I'm telling the algorithm that I'm cool with that.

And I wonder, you know, how, like, they're starting to see those, like, cr.

This image was generated by AI.

Can we get, like, a human one?

This is genuinely real.

A person made this.

Like, that's gonna be needed.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I. I'm trying to stay off of social media as much as possible, except for work, because I think.

Yeah, there's.

Because, yeah, you're right.

There's just stuff that you're attracted by and you don't want to be.

Everywhere.

Katie.

Like, if you haven't been on, like, you know, socials lately, 80, 70 to 80% of the videos that are being put through on shorts and stuff, they're completely AI generated.

Yeah.

It's too bad.

It's.

Crazy.

It is.

And I.

But isn't.

What's that theory that, like, 80% of the Internet is.

Is like, bots?

Like, the Internet's not actually real anymore.

I don't know.

I'm not sure if I've gone down that rabbit hole.

Yeah.

I mean, yeah, there's like, some theory that basically the Internet is.

It's all.

It's all Fake anyway.

Yeah, it's all fake and bots and all this stuff and so that there's actually no one on the Internet or something.

Well, what are we doing here?

I don't know.

What.

How did we end up here?

Katie.

In the Matrix now.

Yeah, it's scary.

It's scary.

Like, AI is really cool.

Like, I think it's cool.

Like, it just in regards to, like, what people are with it.

Like, I don't.

I don't think I ever envisioned that we would be where we're at today.

If you were to ask me, even at the start of this show, do you think that by 2027, 2026, that, you know, you would be able to have generative AI, like a literal robot that you could just talk to, would talk back and be able to do everything and.

And sound even like a person, like, bullshit.

Bullshit.

Yet, like, here we are, right?

And in a year or two years, I think the, like right now, like, the videos, you can tell because, like, they're just stupid shit will happen.

And like I said, a cruise ship will smash up and nothing will happen or.

But like.

But that's going to change and it's going to get better.

And I'm worried about the moment where it gets so good that it is discernible from real life.

And I don't think we're far.

I think we're a year two, tops.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, I don't have an answer.

I think that's something that, like, some policies.

And I don't know if we should police the Internet either, but we also can't live in fantasy lands.

Yeah, it's.

It's interesting because, like, at that point, I think there.

I think it's important to know what's fake, and I think it's important to know what's real.

Right.

And I don't care whether this is just for creative content or whether this is for politics or news or like world history.

We need to know what's real.

Right.

No.

And I.

37.

I'm 35.

But, like, that was a topic when we were young.

Is like, Power Rangers isn't real.

You don't do Power Ranger moves on your siblings.

You didn't.

You didn't do.

That.

Well, we.

Absolutely did.

But, like, that was the conversation once you got caught.

Yeah.

Is Power Rangers isn't real.

So don't beat up your sibling.

And it's almost like we stopped having those conversations even for things like regular media like TV shows.

I mean, I don't have kids, so maybe you're having those conversations at home.

But to say like, this isn't real, this is for entertainment or fantasy.

Yeah,.

Yeah.

There's a conversation that whether it's AI or Power Rangers needs to be had.

Well, yeah, yeah, I think, I think we're parenting and we're living in a time and in completely unprecedented times.

Nobody's written the rules, nobody even knows what the rules are.

We're trying to make them up as we go and who knows?

Who knows?

The thing is, at least I feel like there's people like you, people like me out there still trying to keep things real, still have real shows, real conversations, authentic human connection.

But yeah, I think, I don't think just simply having a cross code at the top of AI content or whatever is really enough.

Like I, I think we're genuinely going to have to have some level of code for human created content too where it's like, this is real, this actually happened.

Like you're not just seeing a fake video.

Like imagine like a disaster and it's like no one knows whether or not it happened or not.

Like did that tsunami actually hit Japan or didn't it?

I.

Don't know.

And now, you know, imagine like the people saying conspiracy theory today on stuff that is of kind clearly videotaped, clearly happened versus like in a time when people don't even know if the videos they're seeing are real.

Yeah.

Yeah.

My gosh, if we don't figure that out soon, I think we're in for some serious trouble.

I had a follow up thought and it escaped me.

Shoot.

Oh well, it's important.

It'll come back.

That's okay, that's okay.

No, we're getting to the end of the show anyway.

Katie, I just, I'd love to.

Oh my gosh, we could talk about this all day.

I love AI but I'm sorry.

Scared about that.

I'm scared about not being able to understand what is real and what is not.

And that's from a person who grew up in the time of the Internet.

It's like.

That was my point and hopefully a positive is that because we have lived through the start of the Internet.

Like my parents are quite a bit older.

My mom was 38 when she had me.

So like the Internet came out and she was already in her 50s and I was just like this little reckless kid on the Internet.

Napster.

Yeah, right.

And I, I remember when School Zone rolled out.

Yeah, I was still in high school.

So you might have been out of high school by then, but School Zone Rolled out and, like, would put your report cards on there and it would report when you'd, like, skip class.

And my mom's like, just register with your own email.

And I was like, all right,.

No problem.

They were just clueless about the Internet.

And so at least we kind of know what the potential is.

And so maybe that's the one silver lining is that we've had this sort of already one huge technological revolution with the Internet that maybe we're a little more prepared for at least the potentiality of AI.

Yeah.

So our school would call home and leave a message.

That was my preschool zone, so I didn't skip class before school zone.

And you would just go home and delete the message.

But when your parents were like, just sign up for school zone.

You're like, now it seems absurd that, like the student themselves was signed up for school and every notification from the school went through school zones, like parent teacher night or internal report cards or like, everything went through there.

And I was just like, oh, I'm there.

Like, all right.

Yeah, that would have been.

That would have been before my time.

But yeah, that's.

Or after my time, I guess I should say.

But.

Like, is that a.

Shelb has that now?

Like, everything regarding the boys shows up to her phone.

She knows about every event, every.

Every sporting event, or you name it, it's all attacks.

It's pretty crazy.

Now just let your kids manage that themselves and nothing can go wrong, right?

No, probably not.

They're really good kids.

But I don't think.

I don't think that'd be.

Katie, thank you so much.

It's such a great conversation.

Yeah.

It's nice to talk in more depth with you.

Right?

Yeah.

It's like we talk, but it's always business.

We're not business.

Sure.

Bring us into Paper Lime Creative.

What the heck is it?

Who are you for?

What are the services?

Yeah, we are a boutique little marketing firm or brand marketing, branding, graphic design firm.

We are a team of four.

At the time of recording, we do branding.

So corporate identity work.

We'll develop your brand strategy, logo design, and then we do all types of print design.

That's what my background is in.

So business cards, brochures, posters, signage, vehicle wraps, anything that makes your business look good.

Those print collateral pieces we can help with.

Amazing.

Amazing.

And obviously I work with you in Edmonton, but are you geographically capped to Edmonton?

Do you work with people outside of the city?

No, we're not geographically capped.

Unless you need.

Well, even if you do need printing, we've coordinated printing and shipping or we've coordinated local printers for people as well.

But we have clients all over North America.

Okay, amazing, amazing.

And we talked about this briefly before the show.

Vision and Spark.

What is Vision and Spark?

Oh, this.

This will be a fun time capsule when this comes out.

So Vision Spark is a full service marketing agency with myself and four business partners.

So I do the graphic design, branding, but we do podcasting, social media, content writing and website design.

And we specifically work with venture capital funds.

Okay.

Okay.

Well, we have VCs who listen, so that might be.

A.

Good fit for you.

Call us.

And if people want to get a hold of you, Katie, what is the best way for them to do so?

I love a good email.

So that's katyaaperlime ca or katya visionandspark.com.

Okay.

Okay.

And then you are on LinkedIn, right?

That's.

I am on LinkedIn as well.

Yeah,.

Yeah.

This is the world, Katie.

The business world lives on LinkedIn.

So do I. I check LinkedIn every day.

Um, yeah.

So yeah, feel free to connect with me on there.

Amazing.

I will have all of her links on the show notes for this, including her LinkedIn in case you want to follow her and see the work that Paperlime is putting out.

Katie, it's been a pleasure.

Thank you so much.

Thanks, Kelly.

Until next time, you've been listening to the business development podcast and we'll catch you on the flip side.

This has been the business Development podcast with Kelly Kennedy.

Kelly has 15 years in sales and business development experience within the Alberta oil and gas industry and founded his own business development firm in 2020.

His passion and his specialization is in customer relationship generation and business development.

The show is brought to you by Capital Business Development, your business development specialists.

For more, we invite you to the website at www.capitalbd.ca.

See you next time on the business development podcast.