Great Salespeople Don't Sell with Rob Durant

I tell my students, I share with them the secret to success in life.

Hey, do you want me to tell you the secret to success in life?

And I tell them, the secret to success in life is not about what you know.

Now picture this.

I'm at a pretty competitive college in front of an audience of generally freshmen, where for the past 18 years, everything they've done has prepared them for what's on the test.

And I just told them, success in life is not about knowing the stuff that's on the test.

And a few of them will pick up on it and go, oh, yeah, it's about who you know.

Actually, no, success in life is not simply about who you know.

Success in life is about who knows you for what you know.

Your job then is to make sure more and more people know you for what you want to be known for.

The great Mark Cuban once said, business happens over years and years.

Value is measured in the total upside of a business relationship, not by how much you squeezed out in any one deal.

And we couldn't agree more.

This is the Business Development Podcast, based in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada, and broadcasting to the world.

You'll get expert business development advice, tips and experiences.

And you'll hear interviews with business owners, CEOs and business development reps. You'll get actionable advice on how to grow business.

Brought to you by Capital Business Development, capitalbd.

Ca.

Let's do it.

Welcome to the Business Development Podcast.

And now your expert host, Kelly Kennedy.

Hello.

Welcome to episode 352 of the Business Development Podcast.

And today it is my absolute pleasure to bring you Rob Durant.

Rob is the CEO, CEO of US Operations for the Institute of Sales Professionals, the founder of Flywheel Results, and the author of the Social Enablement Blueprint.

His journey into sales was anything but traditional.

He was once a reluctant seller who believed sales was the necessary evil that creates problems for customer service to fix.

But through the years at Disney, Verizon, startups, and in the classroom as a professor, Rob discovered something transformative.

Sales done right is not about manipulation or pressure.

It's about teaching, guiding, and enabling people to find the solutions that they truly need.

That perspective has fueled his mission to elevate the perception of sales into a respected profession grounded in service, content, credentialing and community.

At the heart of Rob's work is the Social Enablement Blueprint, a framework that flips the outdated idea of social selling on its head.

Instead of chasing people with cold pitches, Rob shows entrepreneurs, business developers and leaders how to become approachable, searchable and generous.

Online, so opportunity flows towards them naturally.

Today, Rob's going to share why the perception of sales is broken, how trust is built in the digital age, and practical steps that you can take right now to turn your presence into a magnet for growth.

Rob, it's an honor and a privilege to have you on the show today.

Kelly, I'm so happy to be here.

With a buildup like that, there's only one direction we can go.

We can only win.

We can only win with this one.

Rob, I. I'm excited to have you here.

You know, I was introduced.

I can't remember exactly how we were introduced, but we were introduced digitally, I believe, over LinkedIn.

Yes.

And when we kind of had our first meeting, I was like, man, I'm going to enjoy this conversation with Rob.

I just.

I know it.

We're going to have a great time.

We're going to educate and inspire some people, which is always our goal.

And you have a pretty incredible story.

And not to mention, we actually both share the.

I was running as far as I could, as fast as I could from sales and ended up deeper in it than we could ever imagine.

We can both.

We can definitely chat about that today.

So, once again, honor and privilege.

Thank you for coming.

My pleasure.

Thank you for having me.

Rob, you know, for our listeners who are maybe being introduced to you for the very first time, you know, CEO.

CEO of the Institute of Sales Professionals, sounds like a pretty.

Pretty important job.

How did you know?

Talk to me.

Before we get into that.

Exactly.

Talk to me about the path that has led you there.

Sure.

It's interesting when people ask me in things like job interviews, where do you see yourself in five years from now?

That's such a ridiculous question I've taken to.

I don't answer that question anymore because five years ago, I certainly didn't see myself here, and five years before that, I had no idea what I was going to be doing then.

But one thing has run through all of my experiences, as diverse and eclectic as they seem, and that's the spirit of helping, guiding, mentoring, teaching.

I'm a teacher at my core, and while I am fortunate enough now to actually stand in the classroom on a daily basis as well, that's only one of the many things that I do that I consider a form of teaching.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's so funny because if I look at my career, I went to college and took business to get out of sales.

I remember having this conversation with you.

I. I had been in sales since I was 18.

I was a very young sales Guy.

I worked on a car lot all through high school, and as like a young teenager hanging out around Dodge Vipers, I was like, I just want to sell these and drive them because, you know, I mean, all the people I worked with seemed pretty cool.

They seemed like they had their together.

They were all driving demos.

And I was like, man, that's like, that seems pretty great.

Like, I think that's what I want to do.

And so I remember talking to my sales manager, Rob, right ahead of, you know, turning 18, saying, I'm going to be 18 soon.

Like, I could sell these cars.

Like, what are your thoughts?

And he goes, absolutely not.

You need sales experience.

Why don't you go and get some and then come back and I'll.

I'll bring you back on as a sales guy.

So I ended up in electronic sales as, you know, 18, fresh 18, working at a company in Canada called visions electronics, selling TVs of all things.

And I did that for like six, eight months.

And honestly, I found it a big grind.

But it was just to get the experience, Rob.

I was going back to.

To work at the car dealer in my town.

And so that's what I did.

I went back.

It was early 2008, so I'm sure you know where this story is going, but.

But it was a really epic two months of a sales career for me in sales before, literally, people either shouldn't be buying cars or the wrong people were getting approved and you felt very bad about it.

And that was the end of my car sales career.

But after that, I went to work for selling parts.

I worked for, you know, a number of Canadian reputable part sales companies.

I did stints in Fort McMurray, which is like our oil and gas town.

And I ended up doing kind of that world for a few years until my sister pulled me aside at like 20 years old and was like, kelly, what are you doing with your life?

Like, figure your out.

Go to school.

And so she convinced me to go to business school.

And at that time I was just, you know, I mean, I was getting so sick of sales, Rob.

I was just done with the grind of it all.

And I was like, I just want a soft operations job.

Obviously I had no idea what operations was at that point.

I just want an easy operations job where I just know what I do every day.

I go to work and I do that thing and I go home.

And I was about a month to.

Little over a month into to a position that I got with a fairly new company out of college, working that operation Side, doing the admin work, handling kind of getting people to sites and payroll and projections and stuff.

And my boss pulls me to the side and says, kelly, you've pretty good sales experience.

You've been doing this for a long time.

Why don't you go and do business development for us?

And I remember heading back to my computer, Rob, and Googling, what is business development?

Because nobody even taught me about this in business school.

And.

Yeah, so basically my first introduction to business development was that.

Fell in love with it.

Fell in love with it.

Absolutely.

Loved opening doors.

Like, not necessarily the sales side of it, but just opening doors, nurturing relationships and seeing where that goes, which I think is going to fall very much in line with what we're going to be talking about today.

Because there came a point where I realized, I don't need to sell.

I don't need to sell.

I need to present the right solution to a problem that somebody already has, and they're just going to choose it.

And that's where, like, business development kind of led me and then account management down the line after that.

But I fell into this world and, you know, as.

As now, the business development podcast, I fell into this running as far and as fast as I could away from it.

Absolutely.

I totally relate to that.

Yeah.

Talk to me a little bit about.

About you.

Like, did.

Was your story similar to that?

Very much so.

I like to share with people.

I was tricked into my first sales job.

I was a customer service person because customer service is helping, and that's me.

I'm a helper.

Yeah.

I had worked for the Walt Disney Company for almost a decade.

Wow.

And for anyone who's not aware, Disney actually invented the field of customer service.

I didn't know that.

So when I moved away from Disney World in Orlando to be closer to family in the greater Boston area, I was looking for customer service jobs.

And I had an interview with the largest phone provider in the area at the time for a customer service role.

I thought, oh, you know, this would be great to get on with a reputable company like this and my customer service background.

Let's see where it goes.

Six weeks of interviews, batteries of tests, and I still remember to this day the voice of the HR representative on the other line, on the other end of the line saying, rob, we'd like to hire you for a customer service representative.

Yes, but please know, Rob, there is a sales quota with this role.

No.

What kind of job has to hide the fact that there's a sales quota with it?

How good a job can it really be?

Yeah.

But I needed the job, so I swallowed hard and took the job anyway.

But I was scared to death.

As you alluded to in the intro, I was of the mindset that if sales didn't screw up somewhere, we wouldn't need customer service.

So how am I going to make this sales job work?

What I decided was just don't look, lose the customer.

I might not be able to make even one sale, but if I can lean into my customer service background and keep the customers that we have, maybe that will keep me one step ahead of my colleagues, those that were hired at the same time as me and did not have the customer service training to lean into.

Yeah.

And that's when the epiphany struck.

That's when I learned the secret to outstanding sales.

Turns out adequate customer service requires three things.

You ask questions, you uncover the root cause issue, and you present solutions so that your customer can make an informed decision.

That's it.

That's table stakes.

If you're not doing that, you're not doing customer service.

Outstanding salespeople do four things.

They ask questions, they uncover the root cause issue, they present solutions so that their prospects can make an informed decision.

There's just one more thing that outstanding salespeople do that customer service people cannot bring themselves to do.

Care to guess?

Ask for the sale?

That's exactly it.

It's not complex closing techniques.

It's not overcoming objections.

It's not that difficult.

But we're so reluctant to do it.

We are, because we're customer service people.

We are helpers.

And if I want to help you, I certainly don't want to harm you.

And I realized I was doing this.

This was me.

I was personalizing the sale.

I can't afford this.

Therefore.

I presume you can't afford this.

Therefore, in order to provide you with great customer service, I won't even offer it to you.

Because to offer it to you would be an insult, right?

No, gosh.

To offer it to you would be exactly the best service you could provide.

We don't lie.

We don't cheat.

We don't steal.

And a lie by omission is still a lie.

I am not advocating for anything like that.

Yeah, but if you've worked with your prospect, if you've identified what their problem is, and you happen to have the solution to that problem, how dare you not allow them to decide for themselves?

My gosh.

Oh, my gosh.

That's.

It makes.

I love.

I love what you said.

It's like it's so internal that we're.

We're essentially pushing our own feelings onto them, our own values onto them, our own beliefs onto them, and essentially stealing their decision from them.

Exactly how did you come to that realization?

I really don't know, other than there was one day I was sitting at my desk in the call center, and I was taking call after call and solving problem after problem, and I had sold nothing.

And frankly, I didn't much care.

But I also realized that I wasn't asking anybody if they wanted anything.

They called with this problem, we came to the solution and moved on.

But somebody had called a few days earlier, spoken with somebody else.

That problem was solved, and they came up with another problem.

When I finally realized, oh, you know what would solve this is.

Is this other solution.

But there is a monthly charge for it.

That's the solution.

They couldn't get it fast enough.

Yeah.

And that's when I realized maybe there is something to this.

Like I say, in the customer service role, I am not advocating for selling for the sake of selling.

I am absolutely opposed to customer service.

People carrying quotas.

Sales quotas, yeah.

Because I want them to, at their core, serve.

But I also want them to recognize that part of that service might be the facilitation of acquiring a solution.

I might not be able to afford it, or I might not choose to forego my money for this solution.

I don't value it.

Yeah, but if they value the solution more than they value the charge for it, who am I to say otherwise?

Sure.

And that simple epiphany actually led me to some tremendous opportunities in sales, presidents club trips, and all of those great things.

Yep.

Yep.

It's so funny.

I work with a lot of entrepreneurs, and I see this problem all the time.

Literally all the time, Rob.

Where they have an incredible product, they have an incredible service, and they're like, I can't sell it.

And it.

I think it comes down to, ultimately, it's a belief that they're not worth that inside.

I almost actually say that for a lot of business owners, you're better off to hire somebody to sell for you who has no connection to the company aside from being an employee and believing in the product.

Right.

Because they're going to believe and say things and say the right things and ask for that sale.

And when the owner, the entrepreneur, absolutely struggles to do that very same thing because they're too close to it, it's not about the service or the company.

It becomes about them.

It's that feeling of asking for money.

You're not asking for money.

What you are doing is asking for permission to help.

It comes with a cost.

That's just the way of it.

Yep.

And if they don't want it, they can say no.

And while I don't teach my salespeople this, I do teach my customer service people this.

When they say no.

Okay.

Is an adequate response.

Yep.

Yeah, no, thank you.

Okay.

But when they say no, then the problem that you've identified and the solution you've identified, they don't either see the problem is significant enough or the solution is valuable enough.

And that value is in one of two things.

Either they don't believe that it will resolve it to their satisfaction, or the cost associated with that is not worth the solution.

Either way, as the customer service person you've offered, as the founder of a company, it doesn't feel like you can get away with that.

I know what it feels like to work 28 hours in a day.

I know what it feels like to make that sale or have the lights go off.

I understand that sense of almost desperation.

Yep.

Don't be desperate.

Be helpful.

And if you can't be helpful to the person that says, no, thank you, that's fine.

Be helpful to the next one and the next one and the next one.

But nothing is going to help if you cannot facilitate their opportunity to purchase.

And if that makes it easier, then call it that.

I'm not a sales guy.

I'm a facilitator of you acquiring.

Yeah.

I've never sold a thing in my life, but I've helped plenty of people solve their problems.

It's interesting that it's a mind.

It's a mindset shift that has to happen.

Exactly.

It's.

It's so funny because like I said, I see it over and over and over again.

I've struggled with it in my own business, even full well knowing the transformation that we can provide.

I've struggled with that because I just.

I think it does start to feel a bit too close when it's your own company.

And, you know, I mean, I'm a little bit biased because a lot of the people I'm working with are entrepreneurs.

So, like, that's more so my.

My experience and my frame of thinking.

But I see it a lot where somebody has an incredible product, an incredible service, they provide a tremendous amount of value.

Actually, I would argue most entrepreneurs are undercharging for their services, way undercharging because they're afraid.

They're like, well, I know I have this great thing, but what if they don't like it or what if something goes wrong?

So I'm going to undercut myself on this so that it's, it's a no brainer.

And then if things don't work out, I'm okay.

Right.

But they're going into it with that mindset instead of just saying I'm going to crush this.

I have an incredible service.

It is worth every penny.

I'm worth every penny and it, and they're going to want it.

Talk to me about when you're working with, with entrepreneurs with high level salespeople, what are some of the steps that you take to help them take a step back, depersonalize the sale?

Because I think that's really what we're talking about here is that we have to depersonalize ourselves from the products and services.

Yes.

We have to stand behind reputable products.

I've done many shows talking about if you don't believe in what you're selling or if you don't believe in the company you're working at, you have to find the right one.

You got to leave because you're not doing them a service and you're not doing your service.

You have to believe in what you sell.

You have to believe in the, in the products and services that you promote.

But that's like step one.

But then you have to depersonalize from it.

To talk to me a little bit about some of the steps you take with people to help them depersonalize from their products and services.

One of my favorite things to do, and sometimes it's more difficult than others, really just depends on the solution.

But one of my favorite things to do is to get the salespeople to walk a mile in the shoes of their prospect.

One of the best examples I have of that is when I was working at a tech startup that offered solutions to help small and medium sized businesses with their online advertising, we had two weeks of 40 hour week classroom training.

Typical training is here's our product, here's our pricing here, here's our competition, here's our script.

I didn't show them our product for a week.

Instead I had them build their own online advertising for their online business and had them go through each and every one of the pains that our solution fixed so that in the second week I could turn to them and say, remember when on Tuesday you encountered this problem and you were pulling your hair out?

We've all seen that problem.

Here's what our solution has done to address that.

And this problem and this solution and this problem and this solution, what that did for them was to get them out of their own personal agenda, get them into the mindset of our prospects.

But it also gave them some incredibly powerful language that is.

Yes, Mr.

Prospect.

Yes, Ms.

Prospect.

When I was building my own company just like yours, I encountered that exact same problem.

And here's what I did about it.

So it's that firsthand experience that they could speak to, not just, oh, yeah, it's in there.

Our product.

Oh, yeah, it does this.

Yeah.

You know that it does this because you know why it does this because you know what problem your prospects are dealing with day in and day out.

Anytime you can get your sales team to walk a mile in the shoes of their prospects, do it.

It's incredibly valuable.

Oh, but we don't have a week of training.

The hell you don't.

You don't take that week.

Do you have time to then hire somebody else and train them poorly as well?

Yeah.

Do it right the first time.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No, I love that.

And I. I wrote down a note here that just got me thinking.

What you were doing was being relatable.

Yeah.

Being genuine, being authentic.

Showing that not only do I understand, but I understand the pain.

I understand the challenge you're going through, and I want to help.

I want to.

I want to put together a solution.

I think that's really the key.

Like, relatability is the.

The best currency you can have in this modern world.

It really is being able to be relatable, authentic understanding.

When I look back at, you know, I spent 10 years working for a services company in the business development and account management role.

And like you said, you know, my best.

My best sales were no sales at all.

It was hanging out, shooting the shit with a friend at lunch.

And then at the end, they said, kelly, you know, this is great.

Had a great conversation with you, by the way.

We have this big project coming up, and we want your team on it.

Right.

Like, I love what you're saying, but it took me.

I think maybe the important thing, too, is to understand that that relationship was not immediate.

It took time.

It.

I had to show up for them repeatedly and show that I cared not just about their company, but them personally.

You know, what they were going through in life.

You know, I had.

I had one client.

He'd been through divorce.

He'd been through everything, and I'd been with them the whole time.

You know, like, it was.

It was more like sitting down with friends.

I find account management, and that's what I teach now when I'm working with people on the account management side.

As they say, look, build a friendship, don't build a client.

Yep.

You build a friendship and a last a lifetime.

You build a client, it might last year.

A year, Right.

At the end of the day, we have to change the way that we think about it.

Talk to me a little bit about how this led into teaching for you.

Because, you know, I mean, it's one thing.

And for me, I'm in the exact same boat as you.

Actually, now I'm.

I'm more in the teaching space now as well.

And for me, it was the realization that I had a process, a skill set, and I could help a handful of people directly or I could help thousands of people indirectly and directly through my teaching.

And so for me, it became about impact and obligation.

I'm a firm believer that if you have an expertise, you have an obligation to help people with it.

You have an obligation to help the next generation.

How did you end up in the teaching space?

I'm the son of a math teacher.

My dad has been teaching algebra in public schools for over 50 years now.

Wow.

Even in his retirement, he's still teaching at the local community college.

Yeah, but when I went to college, he said to me, rob any school you get into, anything you want to study, I will pay for it.

Unless you go into teaching.

Wow.

Now, if I had really pressed the issue, he probably would have supported me in a teaching role as well.

But I didn't know what I wanted to be when I grew up.

Sure.

So I just went into business instead.

But everything I've ever done, I've gravitated towards helping, mentoring, guiding, leading, training, teaching.

I've actually had an opportunity to teach math and business in the public high schools about a decade ago, and I loved it.

I thought I would ride off into the sunset as a teacher.

You know, I had 20 years in industry and now 10 years in, in.

Well, a few years in, in public schools.

A recruiter reached out to me with an opportunity to join a startup.

That was one of my bucket list goals.

I mean, Hollywood makes working for a startup look fantastic.

That's right, they do.

And how often does your bucket list come knocking on your door saying, we want you?

So I chose to pursue that and had a great time of it and even more opportunity to develop the ideas around sales training, sales enablement, social enablement.

I'll get to that in a minute.

A couple of years back, I was touring colleges with my daughter and I ran into a friend of mine and we had both worked at the phone company.

She is now working at the college.

My daughter was touring and I said to my friend, oh my gosh, you have my dream job.

When I retire, that's what I'm going to do.

She said, why do you have to wait until you retire?

And that was the, the opportunity for me as an adjunct professor, I get to work with all kinds of students from all over the world, teaching them about sales and marketing.

That's so cool.

That's so cool.

Yeah.

I think what I found over time was that, well, and I found it through the show, actually, I had no idea that I would have such a, like a strong passion for teaching people and I would enjoy it so much.

I think, I think it was a bit of a surprise for me because I'd never once looked at that as like a career opportunity or something that I would do in my life.

But it's like the further I went down the path with this and the more people I saw reaching out being like, hey, I need this support, I need this help.

And once I started doing that one on one coaching, which evolved into group coaching and, and team training, I was like, holy crap, this is awesome.

It's.

You get so much reward, personal reward from helping other people learn things.

And like, I know it should be maybe obvious to people, but helping people feels, I feel like we have to, I feel like we have to like talk about that right now because it, it's surprising, I think to a lot of people.

But if you have, I say now when I speak to experts, like if you have a skill set, teach it to somebody.

If you have an area of expertise that took you 15, 20 years to learn, help that next person, help that next business developer, that next salesperson, the next entrepreneur.

Because my gosh, not only is it amazing for them, but it feels good for you too.

When I look at their whole reasoning behind this very show, I didn't realize at the time the impact it would have.

But what I was trying to do was help Kelly, was help 23 year old Kelly, who got offered that BD job, had never had any experience with it at all, never came up in school, had to google what is business development.

I wanted that person to have resources, to have a show with lessons, a lot of lessons on how to do this.

And I think maybe some of the most rewarding parts of this show have been Rob, when people reach out to me and say, kelly, I found your show right ahead of applying for this business development manager job.

I'd never even heard what business development was Before I got the job, I got the job.

And now I'm using your structure to take it to the next steps.

It's completely free and it feels amazing.

Right, Exactly.

Lead us into, you know, the Institute of Sales Professionals.

I remember saying I'd never come across that before.

And you specifically run the US operation.

This is a worldwide organization.

Yes, the Institute of Sales Professionals.

The ISP has been in the UK for about 10 years now.

Okay.

And the ISP has one goal.

To elevate the profession of sales.

Now, I say it like that, and that's the truncated version.

The real version is to elevate the perception of the profession of sales.

Because most salespeople, like most people, most salespeople are good, but the perception of sales and the perception of salespeople, even amongst salespeople.

Yeah.

Is not necessarily good.

And I like to joke.

I blame Hollywood.

Have you ever seen a movie about sales that did not include the salesperson as the villain?

I don't know.

Maybe not exactly.

Because the salesperson as the hero isn't a very fun story.

Nobody's buying tickets to that movie.

I helped.

Duh.

What did you do?

I facilitated their purchase.

When done right.

That's what I'm doing.

Yeah.

That's not a Hollywood story.

So the ISP has set out to make sure that those of us who are doing it right are recognized for doing it right.

And those of us who are struggling to even understand what doing it right looks like have the resources we need to do that.

And we do that with the three Cs.

We do that with content, we do that with certification, and we do that with community.

The ISP is the only organization in the United Kingdom recognized by the UK's Office of Qualifications as authorized to certify people in sales.

And I know that might sound like a.

So what?

There aren't a lot of government organizations that oversee credentialing here in the us.

If I wanted to issue a credential, what do I need to do that?

I need to print the credential.

But what authority do I have to do that?

Well, I have a printer.

Is it a Xerox, though?

Yeah.

Right.

We have a set of frameworks, and we are annually audit.

Audited for rigor and financial stability and all of the things that you would expect in any other organization.

CPAs, doctors, teachers, they are all authorized by professional bodies.

The ISP is setting out to do that as well.

But I want to make one quick thing clear about that.

I am not saying that I believe all salespeople should have a credential.

I am saying that those salespeople who want to set themselves apart as credentialed should have the means to do so.

And that's what we're providing.

Yes, yes.

Well, it's funny because there just isn't a lot for us.

And yet sales, business development, things along those lines, it's hundreds of millions, if not a billion plus people on this planet are in that are in that profession.

Right.

And I actually agree with you.

When you look at even something like real estate, like you need a real estate license to sell a house.

Right.

Like I'm actually with you.

I think maybe the problem is, is that there hasn't been a certified process, maybe until now, maybe until what you're working on today, that has been approved as something that could ultimately work across industry.

I think maybe that's been one of the struggling things is that sales is so broad that when you look at it across the world, it's like, well, does that work for industrial construction?

What works over here for, you know, manufacturing or for this widget and that widget, it's like they're different things.

So was process something that you guys really grabbed onto?

Is something that, like for instance, with business development, I teach a very unified process that I believe would work across all industry.

Because the goal here is to open doors.

And if you can put together a structure that opens doors, builds interest and gets you that meeting that can work across industries.

I think that's the money, that's the thing you have to do.

And I think that's something that sales has to do as well to differentiate.

Talk to me a little bit about the process that you guys use.

We have a framework that has four pillars and within those pillars, 17 different aspects that we look at and very much about the process of sales.

Yeah.

But the foundation beneath all of that is our ethical sales framework.

We have a certification in sales ethics that when you complete it, shows you have studied what it means to be ethical and you have committed to maintaining an ethical approach to just sales.

And when you commit to maintaining that and complete the study and pass the test and it, it's got some rigor to it.

It's not a fly by night thing.

Yeah, you can differentiate yourself from your competing salespeople by saying trust me.

Well, everyone says trust me.

Ah, yes, trust me.

Because this independent third party is confirming I have made the commitment to you so that you can trust me.

How do you make sure that people are following the practices?

How are you able to edit?

Let's Call it over time, millions of salespeople.

That's a fair question.

The fact of the matter is we really can only address two things.

First, we can address the fact that someone has committed to behaving ethically.

And second, we can really only address a deviation from that if it's brought to our attention, if it's reported.

Yeah, right.

There is no other way of going in and auditing every salesperson if they're going to commit to something and then behave unethically.

They were going to behave unethically to begin with.

Sure, sure.

The challenge is it does give somebody someplace to go, right?

Absolutely.

Yeah.

The challenge is even in that question.

And I understand where it comes from because we are well aware of when people behave unethically when it comes to sales.

Yes.

We just presume that's the typical behavior of sales.

That's actually so few and far between as compared to the number of people that just do behave ethically.

Agreed.

But that's not what draws our attention.

Doesn't make a good movie.

It's the nails that stick out that get hammered.

That's right.

Exactly.

Yes.

No, I agree completely.

I agree completely.

And yeah, I would make that argument.

You know, it's funny, like, I know so many entrepreneurs and actually the biggest problem they have is they're too helpful sometimes.

Like, they're more willing to give everything away than to charge for it because they genuinely want to help.

And I.

And you know, you made the case earlier on that I believe that that's.

Most people.

Most, most people want to help.

I agree completely, 100% that it's.

It's a small minority, but they're.

They get the most attention.

Yes.

For better or for worse.

They do.

For better.

For worse.

No.

That's amazing.

I want to talk to you about your book, the Social Enablement Blueprint.

And I guess one of the questions that I had is, do you think that sales is changing?

Absolutely.

Sales is changing in so much as I, I'll.

I'll just give you an example.

When I was working with the startups and I was running point on hiring, we would be given a certain Persona we were looking for in terms of hiring.

It's that type A personality.

It's that.

That hockey player that likes to get somebody in the corner and really just beat them up.

We didn't want the hockey players getting them in the corner and just beating them up.

Give me your teachers, give me your EMTs, give me your helpers of any way, shape or form, and I can help them become the incredible salespeople that they already are because all they're doing is facilitating the purchase through helping.

What is social enablement?

What does that mean?

Sure, social enablement is the term that I coined that talks about social self, but I use social enablement intentionally for two reasons.

For?

First, when you think of social selling, you probably think of that LinkedIn, connect and pitch.

The pitch slap.

The term social selling has been abused.

Also, while we do teach how to increase revenue by leveraging social media, it's really not selling that we teach.

We don't teach connect and pitch.

We teach connect and connect.

Yes.

Three basic tenets.

Be approachable, be sociable, be generous.

Nowhere in there is always be closing.

I heard you allude to it earlier, Kelly.

People like to do business with people they know, like and trust.

Yes.

But in order for them to trust you, they need to know you.

In order for them to get to know you, they need to like you.

In order for them to even get to like you, you need to connect with them.

Just literally reach out and connect.

Yeah.

And then have a conversation and then get to know them for what they want to be known for.

Because people are great at reciprocating.

Yes.

If I learn about you and the things that are important to you and the things that you want to be known for, eventually you're likely to ask me the same and I'll share with you.

And then you may never have need for what I'm selling.

You certainly are not likely to have need for it right now.

So me pitching to you, me quote,.

Unquote, selling makes no sense.

No.

It just drives a wedge between us.

Yeah.

But if you know me for what I want to be known for, and then down the road you suddenly have that know need, I'm the only one in your Rolodex that you're thinking about.

That's right.

That's right.

Some of the best feedback I ever got from clients was when you'd be sitting down across from them and they would just look at you and say, you're the only person I go to for this.

And I know I. I know that you've likely experienced the same thing.

And it was, it was just the relationship.

Right.

It's that, it's that level of, you're my guy, you're my person, you're my woman.

That's it.

That's.

That is the goal that every business should be aspiring towards, is building that level of connection.

Exactly.

So the social enablement blueprint is just that.

It's a blueprint for Explaining the theories behind it and then putting together some practical steps on how to actually go about executing that.

You're a BD guy.

You know that in every day some business development activity must take place.

Yes.

If I can show you in 15 minutes a day something that you can do on LinkedIn to just move one step forward and one step forward, suddenly that thought of being on LinkedIn regularly actively becomes less intimidating.

Yeah.

I'm not here to make anyone an influencer.

I am here to help people find influence.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's interesting because when I got into business development, you didn't reach out to people on LinkedIn.

That was a no.

No.

You maybe research people on it, but you never reached out to them.

Texting was an absolute no go.

You never texted your client, you crazy person.

You can probably get fired for texting your client back then.

And I think maybe what I'm alluding to here is that the tools change.

The tools change.

Right.

Totally cool.

To text your client now.

Absolutely.

Everybody's connected to everybody on LinkedIn.

Pre2020, you didn't talk about yourself or your personal life on LinkedIn.

Post 2020.

Do it all the time.

The tools change would be maybe.

What I would maybe recommend is if people need a frame shift as to why to think about utilizing LinkedIn, it's because the tools change and it's just a tool.

The tools change, certainly, and the attitudes have changed as well.

But for me and the team that I work with, when it comes to social enablement, the approach changes as well.

When you think of sales and cold calling, there's just one goal.

Get the sale.

As I said, with social enablement, it's connect and connect.

There's only one goal.

Get the connection.

As in establish a relationship.

You and I established a relationship through LinkedIn.

Yes.

Had a phone call subsequent to that and now a relationship is building there.

Correct.

I'm never going to buy what you're selling and you're never going to buy what I'm selling.

Or maybe we are.

Hardly matters.

What matters is we're building our network of connections that matter by building our network.

Oh, but I have a quota to meet.

Yeah, I get that.

It's really challenging for a lot of people to put effort into connecting for the sake of connecting.

When I have a quota, to me, well, what's the alternative?

Cold calls, Cold emails?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Is that working?

And that's why I say I'm not espousing that somebody spend eight hours a day doing this.

Fifteen day.

Fifteen minutes a day.

Just to develop who knows you for what you want to be known for.

Yeah.

And soon enough, opportunities that you could not otherwise have foreseen will start coming to you.

I've taken a little bit of a 180 on in person networking events and I would maybe love your opinion on it.

I find that like these days, parent, entrepreneur, podcaster, still doing client work on the side, the idea of going somewhere and losing half a day or a whole day at an event is like an absolute no go.

I actually built a community called the Catalyst Club where I bring a bunch of entrepreneurs to us where we network virtually and I find a lot of value in doing that.

What is your take on, you know, large scale in person networking events for salespeople these days?

Personally, I love them because I have found that the digital equivalents, it's very easy to be a wallflower.

Now I could be a wallflower in person as well, but I am not a proponent of one or the other.

I'm a proponent of you feel.

Find what you're most comfortable with and you do it.

As long as you do something, it's the not doing that is challenging.

Can you make the most out of digital only?

Absolutely.

Because as you say, just logistically it's so much smarter.

Yeah.

To spend your time there.

There's no commute, there's no loss of time at an event that you never really should have gone to in the first place.

Well, and that's my point is that I think a lot of events probably you probably shouldn't have gone to.

And I'm not saying all events are bad.

Actually, I'm a huge advocate of the right events.

I was at an event called Pod Summit last week in Calgary.

Absolutely loved it, had a great time.

But actually, and I'm going to go back to what you said.

I had no agenda at that event and I think that is the way we have to approach in person events is no agenda.

Connect to connect.

Connect to meet people who share similar values to you, who, who maybe share the love of podcasting, the love of sales, the love of your industry.

But I think we have to flip the script on how we attend these events.

It's not about getting something, it's about connecting.

Exactly.

It's about understanding people for what they want to be known for.

And then they feel seen, then they feel heard, and then they feel comfortable trying to understand you for what you want to be known for.

Yeah.

What did they say?

We have two ears and one mouth for a reason?

Yes.

Yes, it's.

It's Funny, because if I look at it, Rob, if I look at the history of my business, my life, my trajectory, almost everything that has come to me came through somebody else.

Of course, like, if I look at.

The best clients I've ever worked with, they were referrals through a friend or through a colleague.

It's not the hunt that I went out and hunted that has become the best fruition of any of my lines of business.

It's always been, hey, I want to introduce you to somebody which is, I think, the power of that network you're talking about.

Oh, most definitely.

It's a bit of a tangent, but there's an outstanding TED Talk that talks a little bit about what you were saying there.

It's Ernesto Ceroli's Shut up and Listen, and I love it.

There are so many nuggets in that one.

But the thing that reminded me of that as you were talking was in that video, he says that nobody ever succeeded on their own.

He even gives the example of Richard Branson and Virgin businesses.

And so many examples of people rely on people to get business done.

There's no such thing as that bootstrapped entrepreneur that did not have help and support somewhere.

Yes, yes, agreed, 100%.

I don't think any of us can do it on our own.

If you're truly that alone, you're probably not going to make it.

And where do I go to collect the badge that says, I did it without help?

And why would you want that badge?

Yeah, yeah.

You wear that badge and you're kind of saying, hey, I don't need you.

I don't need anybody.

No, absolutely, absolutely.

You know, I guess one of the questions that I had for you regarding all this is I think we all come to it, we all come to that conclusion eventually.

I think if you spend enough time in business development sales, eventually you realize, holy crap, like, I. I really can't do this alone.

And.

And I think every year it just gets reinforced harder and harder and harder that we really need that support.

It was funny.

I was talking to one of my sponsors earlier this year, and we were sitting in the truck, and I. I said, colin, I think I'm the worst person to sell my products.

And he just kind of started laughing, and he's like, oh, you just figured that out, huh?

And I said, well, yeah.

When I look at, like, the track record of everything I do, almost everything that's become something meaningful came through.

Somebody else came through.

Somebody saying, hey, have you heard of Kelly?

He does this.

Or have you heard of Kelly's coaching, or you heard of Kelly's podcast.

And whenever I'm out there saying, have you heard about me?

That doesn't really work, he's like, yep, that's the power of community.

And I think, really.

And it sounds funny, but it was really hammered home this year on that very subject that we are, we really need that community support.

So what you're advocating for building connection even when there's nothing in it for you, immediately, I think you're on, you're absolutely on the right path because the more people you know, the more people who know you and what you do, the more people are going to talk about you.

And the more people talk about you, the more opportunity comes your way.

I tell my students I share with them the secret to success in life.

Hey, do you want me to tell you the secret to success in life?

Imagine an 18 year old sitting in a classroom and being offered that.

Well, yeah, if not a little skeptical.

And I tell them the secret to success in life is not about what you know.

Now picture this.

I'm at a pretty competitive college in front of an audience of generally freshmen, where for the past 18 years, everything they've done has prepared them for what's on the test.

And I just told them, success in life is not about knowing the stuff that's on the test.

I've kind of lost my audience at this point.

And, you know, a few of them will pick up on it and go, oh, yeah, it's about who you know.

Actually, no, I despise nepotism.

I have no use for the good old boys network.

Success in life is not simply about who you know.

Success in life is about who knows you for what you know.

Your job then is to make sure more and more people know you for what you want to be known for.

And the best way to do that, Start with them.

My gosh, you know what?

Like I like to say that 2024 was the year that everybody woke up to personal branding.

And that's exactly what you're saying.

It's literally exactly what you're saying, as is like probably the most important thing for everybody, maybe even to take away from this conversation.

Who knows you for what you want to be known for?

That is what personal branding is all about.

Absolutely.

And as I say, the easiest way to get people to know you for what you want to be known for?

Start with them, ask them about them and what they want to be known for.

And once they feel heard, once they feel welcome, then they're open to learning about you as well.

They almost feel obligated to reciprocate.

I hesitate to use the word obligate because it then it sounds like a hack and a trick and nothing of.

Of the sort is meant by that.

It's just incredibly valuable for me personally to get to know the people I'm speaking with and then as a.

An offshoot, a bonus, if you will, they want to do the same.

Yes.

Yes.

Wow, that was amazing, Rob.

That was like such a great conversation.

I loved every minute of it.

I think there's so much value in this conversation and obviously a ton of value in what you're doing as well.

How exactly do people become members of the Institute of Sales Professionals?

How do people become members or get memberships or start to join this organization?

You can Visit us at the-isp.org and on the membership page you'll see the varying levels of membership, but there's even a free level of membership.

If you're not sure if this is for you or not, we'll start by just becoming a member of the community.

Start by reviewing some of the resources that we have available to the general public.

Start by understanding what we mean by our ethics certification.

And then if there's more interest and you want to connect with me personally, you can find me on LinkedIn.

And I know that, like some of the big challenges that I always hear people saying is I don't know how to sell.

I became an entrepreneur and I know how to do this service really well, or I know how to build this widget really well, but I have no idea how to promote that thing.

Do you guys provide sales training as well?

There are some, and we are developing more resources in that regard.

We also work with a lot of third party approved training organizations.

Okay.

So when we identify maybe a gap in your sales process, if our resources don't cover that, we'll refer you to an authorized training vendor who specifically addresses that need.

And when they've worked with us, we put them through the same type of rigor of certifications and standards that we are held to so that you know that it is a quality set of training that you're getting specific to your ideal training program.

Absolutely.

And that's critical because there's a lot of Internet experts out there.

Yeah.

Who may or may not be able to help help you.

Having essentially an accredited list is super, super valuable.

So thank you for doing that.

Absolutely.

Rob, this has been amazing.

Obviously, if people want to get a hold of you, LinkedIn, is there an email that people can reach at.

Absolutely.

You can reach me at rob isp-us.org Amazing.

And I'll have that up on the Show Notes.

I'll have the links on the website or for the website on the Show Notes.

One last question for you.

If you had to give advice to an organization right now on how to prepare their sales teams for the future, if you could just give one nugget of advice for them, what might that be?

How do people prepare for sales in 20, 26 and beyond?

Oh, that's a great question.

For me, it's about those connections.

When I want to go to my garden in my backyard and pick some snap peas, I can't simply walk out to the backyard and expect that there will be snap peas there.

I had to take the time to plant the seeds, to till the garden, to water the garden, to care for it.

Give your sales team the time that they need to cultivate true relationships.

And I know that's really hard.

It's really, really hard to give them time because sales leaders these days have the shortest tenure ever.

Find an organization that believes in that process, believes in the value of relationships and will give you the Runway you need to be successful at that.

That goes for sales leaders.

That goes for the individual salespeople.

Find the organization that isn't just, oh, the best comp structure because that comp structure will fall apart when no sales come through the door.

Find the one that's going to allow you to develop as a professional, whether.

In sales or business development.

You need a Runway long enough to win.

There you go.

I love it.

Rob, we've been speaking with Rob Durant, CEO, US Operations of the Institute of Sales Professionals.

Rob, it was a pleasure speaking with you.

Kelly, it's always a pleasure.

I look forward to chatting with you again.

Until next time, you've been listening to the Business Development Podcast and we'll catch you on the flip side.

This has been the Business Development Podcast with Kelly Kennedy.

Kelly has 15 years in sales and business development experience within the Alberta oil and gas industry and founded his own business development firm in 2020.

His passion and his specialization is in customer relationship generation and business development.

The show is brought to you by Capital Business Development, your business development specialists from.

More we invite you to the website at www.capitalbd.ca.

See you next time on the Business Development Podcast.