Mastering Influence & Deception Detection with Dr. Jack Schafer

Mastering Influence & Deception Detection with Dr. Jack Schafer

Kelly Kennedy: Welcome to episode 240 of the Business Development Podcast, and today we welcome back Dr. Jack Shafer, former FBI, special agent, and one of the world's leading experts in behavioral analysis and human influence from espionage to boardroom strategy. This episode is packed with insights you can use. Today, stick with us.

You don't wanna miss this episode.

Intro: The Great Mark Cuban once said, business happens over years and years. Value is measured in the total upside of a business relationship, not by how much you squeezed out in any one deal. And we couldn't agree more. This is the Business Development podcast based in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada, and broadcasting to the world.

You'll get expert business development advice, tips, and experiences, and you'll hear interviews with business owners, CEOs, and business development reps. You'll get actionable advice on how to grow business, brought to you by Capital Business Development CapitalBD.ca. Let's do it. Welcome to The Business Development Podcast, and now your expert host, Kelly Kennedy.

Kelly Kennedy: Hello. Welcome to episode 240 of the Business Development Podcast, and on today's expert guest interview, it is my pleasure to welcome back Dr. Jack Schafer. Dr. Schafer is a renowned psychologist. Intelligence consultant and former FBI, special agent. During his distinguished FBI career, Dr. Schafer served as a behavioral analyst in the National Security Division where he developed cutting edge technologies for spy recruitment and revolutionized methods of interrogation and persuasion that have left an indelible mark on national security.

His deep understanding of the human psyche and his ability to detect deception in high stakes scenarios have made him one of the most sought after experts in the fields of counterintelligence and behavioral science. Today, Dr. Schafer continues to shape the future of human behavior analysis as the professor at Western Illinois University and is a prolific author.

His bestselling books include the like Switch and the truth detector, and they provide readers with powerful, actionable strategies to master the art of influence, build unbreakable trust and unmasked deception in any setting from the dark alleys of espionage to the boardrooms of global business. His insights transcend boundaries and redefine what it means to connect, persuade, and lead.

Dr. Schafer's work is more than just theory. I. It's a masterclass in real world application of psychological tactics that can change the course of a conversation, a deal, or even a life. Dr. Schafer, it's great to have you back.

Jack Schafer Ph.D.: Thank you. Glad to be back.

Kelly Kennedy: We talked about this briefly before the show, but the last interview I had with you, it was it was episode 84 and we did it on the Power of Primacy.

We were very much basing that one on the like switch, which is one of my favorite books of all time. Honestly, when I got into business development, I. I would say that Dale Carnegie's How to Win Friends and Influence People and your book, the like Switch are like the two books that I recommend to anybody who's in sales, business development, any type of, any situation where building a relationship as part of the job.

You really wrote the book on it.

Jack Schafer Ph.D.: Oh, thank you. It was a culmination of life work and working with the FBI and with people in general.

Kelly Kennedy: It's an amazing book and you talk, you give so many of your own experiences in that book and it's very exciting. And if anybody's listening to this and you have not yet read the like switch, just do it.

It's absolutely amazing. And when we were talking about this last time, Dr. Schafer, you're like, Kelly, have you not read the Truth Detector yet? And I was like, what? You have another book? How did I miss this? So I have gotten caught up on the truth detector. It is excellent. It is absolutely excellent. You focus so much on elicitation, which is something that honestly.

I'd never really learned about, so I'm pretty pumped to talk with you about that today. But before we do, Dr. Schafer, episode 84 was a long time ago, and there's a lot of new listeners who are getting this for the first time. Do you mind reintroducing them to who Dr. Schafer is?

Jack Schafer Ph.D.: Yeah, my my name's Jack Schafer and I worked 20 years with the FBI and the last seven years of my FBI career, I spent as a behavioral analyst.

And most people may think about a behavioral analyst as the portrayal on TV or the FBI profiles, go to a crime scene and try to figure out who did it based on the evidence at the crime scene. We don't do that. We do something a little bit different. We typically have a suspect or subject that we wanna recruit or we want them to, to.

Tell us something during an interview, what we do is get their profile from a lot of indirect means, and we sit in a room and look at their personality and find weaknesses in their personality, and then try to develop strategies that will take advantage of those weaknesses. So we have a suspect, and it's typically in terrorism and counter espionage.

And counter espionage is simply catching spies. So we spend a lot of time trying to identify spies and then think of strategies to get them to either confess and we can put 'em in prison, or we can use them as double agents and recruit them to spy for us against their home country. Wow. And then after that I spent four years with a private company working with assets in the Middle East during the Iraq and Afghanistan war on high value targets.

Then I began teaching at Western Illinois University.

Kelly Kennedy: My gosh. Yeah. What an amazing career. It's it's pretty unbelievable. And I think like for people that aren't in that world, such as myself it seems like something out of a James Bond book or movie, it's pretty amazing.

I find it pretty exciting and I really enjoy reading your book from that perspective. 'cause it's like, it's a look into the FBI into that world in a way that you don't even see it. And I know the last time we had this conversation, I remember asking you, I'm like, are you like judging people every time you're talking to them?

Because, going through at that time with the primacy effect and things like that, and obviously looking for the friendship signals, right? Things that like you completely take for granted as like just a day-to-day person. I imagine for you, and I remember asking you this at the time. It must be really hard not to be reading somebody every single time you have an interaction.

Jack Schafer Ph.D.: I try not to do it. I try to turn it off, but it's so ingrained in me that I subconsciously look at people, get quick assessments, then I say whoa, let's, this is not the place for that. So it's hard to turn it off though, it is.

Kelly Kennedy: Yes. You give examples in both books regarding, situations like buying a car where learning how to read the person Yeah.

Is actually incredibly beneficial to your ability to negotiate. It's amazing actually, when I read a book like the like Switch or the truth detector, how often I think, man, you develop these for a very different purpose, but they are just as relevant in any business negotiation, in any boardroom, in any situation where you really need to understand the whole picture.

Even though you develop them for counter counterintelligence, like something like this is just as applicable to somebody who's negotiating a big deal.

Jack Schafer Ph.D.: Yeah, because when we talk about human behaviors what I, what as behavioral analysts, what we tried to do was boil down human behavior into core human behaviors that all humans en encounter or possess.

And so I use the analogy of a cake. I'll give people a cake of core human behaviors and then when we go into specific cultures, you have to frost that cake with culturally specific frosting. But it work the techniques for work for all people because they're based on core human behaviors that all people share no matter where you are in the world.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah. Yeah. And like in the like switch you focused in pretty strongly on friendship signals on like understanding how to fly under the radar when you are doing essentially the like switch had elicitation in it too, but you didn't spend as much time on that. Yeah. You were really talking about the power of primacy.

Yeah. And essentially suggesting what you want to happen or giving a preconceived idea. Do you mind maybe just before we go into this episode, chatting a little bit about primacy again, because I think that was incredibly beneficial in our last episode.

Jack Schafer Ph.D.: Yeah. What primacy does it, it creates a filter through which we want people to view the world.

It doesn't change reality, but it changes people's perception of reality. And I'll give you an example that I use quite a bit when I interview criminals. I sit down with my partner and my partner has a with the suspect and my partner has an emergency phone call. So what I do then is I talk to the suspect and say, I really like working with my partner because he's a human lie detector.

No matter how sophisticated the liar is, he can figure it out. He knows when a person's lying and then I talk about something else for a while. So when my partner comes back in five minutes, the suspects looks at my partner in a whole different perspective. So we don't change reality, but we change perception of reality.

And in this one, the best case that I had in that situation is I said to my partner, don't say anything until I ask the guy to drop the bank. And when he says, no, I want you to give him that look like what? You gotta be lying. And I asked him did you rob the bank? He says, no, my partner went, what?

And then he slaps the table with his hand and says, damn, he's good. So what we're dealing with is not. Reality, but somebody's perception of reality. And we use that, I think we use that. If you know somebody likes you, you're gonna look at them from a whole new perspective. Yeah. Then if you know somebody doesn't like you, and the best way to achieve that is I will generally talk to somebody's friend and then have them send a message that they like you.

I do that with my boss too, because, there's always that person in the office that passes information. Is the gossip, the ring kisser and information Yeah. Is always the coin of the realm. So I always tell that person, boy, we, it's about time. We had a good manager. It's about time. Our boss was efficient, and he paid attention to the employees.

So then when he tells the boss that, he'll say, oh, Jack said he, he likes you as a manager, and this and that. So the boss will look at me in a different perspective. More so than if I just walked up and told the boss directly that, because a lot of my students come into my office and they go, oh Professor Schafer, you're the best professor I've ever seen in the whole wide world.

And I go what do you want? So that it's that direct flattery puts people in a defensive mode. Yeah. I would say the best way to approach that situation is, I, professor, I'd like your advice on something, and that automatically elevates me to a status of a professor and that I know what I'm talking about.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah. It's like a, in a, in some ways it's it's flattery still but it's in a different way because we like to help people. So essentially if you ask somebody, Hey, do you mind helping me? The irony is that the people you ask actually like you more for simply coming to them and asking for advice or asking for help.

Jack Schafer Ph.D.: The golden rule of friendship is. If I make you feel good about you, you're gonna like me. So I often tell people when you meet somebody you like, you, you wanna see them again, especially in a dating situation. So if I make you feel good about you, the probability of that person seeing me again increases significantly.

And they'll probably think up excuses to come see me. So they get that same good feeling. So it's not about us, it's about putting the focus on the other person.

Kelly Kennedy: Yes. Yes. It's really interesting 'cause you wouldn't think about it from the standpoint of you would think that you're pestering somebody if you're asking them for advice or asking them for help.

But the funny thing is that we like that, like the human nature of it is we want to feel valued, we want to feel heard. And what better way to do that than to give advice on something. I, yeah it's weird because it feels backwards from the standpoint of trying to build a relationship.

Yeah. But. I can totally see how it works

Jack Schafer Ph.D.: because if you ask somebody for a favor and they do, and that person does the favor for you. They feel good about doing you a favor. Yeah. Therefore, it fits the golden rule of friendship. If I make them feel good about them, then they'll like me. So I often go through very often just asking people for favors, can you do me a favor?

Can you do me a favor and lend me this? Can you do me a favor and do this for me? And that makes them feel good by doing the favor, and then they're gonna like me. It's counterintuitive.

Kelly Kennedy: How well does it work with people when you're moving?

Are there situations that does not apply?

Jack Schafer Ph.D.: Yes. I suppose if you threw in a pizza and a beer, I suppose you'd get a better shot at it.

Kelly Kennedy: There you go. Yeah. No, agreed. One of the funny things that that I like about your book is when you talk specifically about the friend signals and the funny thing is that.

I think I've read your book a few times and I still don't notice myself doing them like they're that, like under the radar. But like the head tilt, the eyebrow flash, the sincere smile to build, to let the guard down, to build trust, to build rapport. It really is like a natural thing that you don't even notice you're doing them.

And on the flip side, you don't notice when they're being done to you.

Jack Schafer Ph.D.: That's absolutely correct. And that's why if you're like in, in a job interview situation, you're in a kind of a very nervous fight flight situation and a lot of times you walk into that situation, if you're in the fight flight situation, you don't display those friend signals.

So you're the person interviewing you gets the impression like, Ooh, that person, something's wrong with that person. They're not really friendly. So you have to learn how to, first thing you have to is recognize that you do it. Then practice a little bit on the eyebrow flash or the head tilt or the smile.

And then once you recognize it and you see yourself doing it, then it's easy to then replicate that when you're in situations where it might be a little nervous, where you might be a little nervous.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah. Yeah. Is it in situations where you might be a little nervous? Like you're talking about like high tense situ, like high tense situations?

Like a negotiation? Yes. A job interview, something like that where the outcome is serious Now, is it a conscious behavior that you, like? Do you have to make a conscious decision? I guess that becomes like the challenging part. 'cause I, like I said, I've read the book, I'm well aware of what they are and how to do them.

But I'll tell you what, when I'm in like a high stress situation, it's the last thing on my mind. Like I, I feel like that goes out the window. Do you know? Do you know what I mean?

Jack Schafer Ph.D.: Yeah. What you have to do is say, I'm going into a high stress situation. And I wanna give a favorable impression, so I'm just gonna have to remember to intentionally make sure that there's an eyebrow flash and a smile and a head tilt.

I do that walking into interviews with suspects. And I remember one suspect I gave him the forensic. I didn't like him. He was a child molester, didn't like him. Yeah. Didn't wanna be around him. And if I went in there with that attitude, he would've picked up on that and possibly shut down. Yeah.

But what I did was I did a head tilt. I did a smile and did the eyebrow flash. And then I asked him, do you wanna something to drink? He said, yeah, I want a soda. And I said, okay. And I hit the handle to the room to leave to get the soda in. And he said, how could you treat me with such respect after what I did?

And it was, it, we didn't even discuss his crime at the time. So what he was picking up on was that respect that I gave him non-verbally. So it's a subconscious receiving and it's a subconscious giving, issuing of the cues.

Kelly Kennedy: When you are forcibly doing it, does it feel weird?

Does it feel not natural? And I get that like a lot of that is the spotlight effect, right? Yes. Which we can touch on. But like to me, if I had to force it, I would feel like, don't they notice that I'm doing this? Don't they notice that it's not real?

Jack Schafer Ph.D.: No. They notice when you don't do it, but they don't notice when you do it if you, if it's natural.

So would you have to practice a little bit, just practice eyebrow flashing and get the sense of when you catch yourself doing it, get the sense of how it feels, and then try to replicate that? Yeah. Yeah. All you're doing is you're just trying to put the best you forward in all situations. So if you're going into negotiations you want that person to like you.

Because if that person likes you, they're gonna be more open to finding solutions that are win-win.

Kelly Kennedy: Yes. Yes. I agree. And it also allows two-way communication for you to negotiate something that makes sense for both parties, which you may not get if they're feeling apprehensive or if they're feeling reserved.

You really need to establish that trust. So what you're suggesting is throw some friendship signals around, be a good person. Build up that rapport, and they'll just put you in a much better situation when you are ready to have that negotiation.

Jack Schafer Ph.D.: And because when people like you they're gonna wanna help you.

They're gonna wanna do things for you. And in sales situations, we buy things from people we like. We don't buy things from people we don't like. And I'm sure we all had that pestering salesman, car salesman or electronic store sale. And somebody's selling you a big ticket item. All they're doing is bugging you and bugging me.

I don't like that person. I'm not buying anything from him, even though I want it. I'll go somewhere else 'cause I don't like the salesperson. So it's key that you develop a rapport with your sale, your sales potential client, because that increases the probability for a successful sale. Yes.

Yes. And the other than the nonverbals, you can the best, probably most powerful way to develop rapport is the verbals. The three signals, the eyebrow flash the head, tilt the smile, and then what you wanna do is look for common ground. How do we share common ground with one another? That's a very powerful rapport building tool.

There's three ways you can get common ground. The first one is contemporaneous, or we share something at the same time. Like you're a Chicago White Sox fan, I'm a Chicago White Sox fan. So we share that in common at the same time. Yeah. And the second one is temporal. I was in the army. You are in the army now.

So over time we share the same experiences or common ground. Then the other one is vicarious. You're in the army, but my brother was in the army. So through my brother we have vicarious common ground. So those are powerful ways to, to achieve com rapport very quickly.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah. Yeah. Yes. And it's absolutely critical, like in any business development, relationship, anything like that, that you need to build and establish a relationship, you have to establish common ground.

Yes. You have to figure out what you have in common, or it makes it really hard. One of the funny examples I have to this Dr. Schafer, is when I got into business development, I was quite young. I was 23 years old. And in Canada where I'm at I work in like the oil and gas province of Alberta. And so a lot of the gentlemen that I was trying to build relationships with at that time were old enough to be my grandparents, right?

Like they were all at the end of their working careers. And I remember really struggling because trying to find common ground with people that are four decades, your senior is not the easiest thing on planet earth. Yeah. But it definitely got easier as time went on. But yeah we found love in motorcycles of all things actually.

That seemed to be the thing I had in common with most of them. But I totally get it. 'cause that was what I was always grasping for. It was what can I, what do I have in common here? How, what do we talk about that isn't business? Yeah. Dr. Schafer the latest book, the Truth Detector, it's awesome.

And I was wondering what you were going to do next? 'cause the like switch was frankly so great, and to this day, I only ever recommend really two books to people. I recommend the switch to people getting into business development and I recommend Dale Carnegie's how to make friends or How to Win Friends and Influence People.

Yeah. They're like the, they're the two books honestly, on, on establishing relationship that are absolutely excellent that I recommend to everybody. And you only really, I was surprised because I thought that you would actually go into the concepts from the switch quite a bit, but you really didn't.

This is a full new book on elicitation. You touch on a couple concepts from the like switch. We talk about the golden rule of friendship. We talk about the friendship signals, but then you really just get into it and elicitation is really interesting. Do you mind getting into what is elicitation to the listeners today?

Jack Schafer Ph.D.: Elicitation is the ability to direct a conversation to a topic that you want to find some information on, and you wanna predispose that person to want to tell you the truth without them being aware that they're revealing the truth. So it's an environment that you wanna create that's favorable for conversation.

Then people naturally, because of the techniques, they're psychologically predisposed to reveal information they would not normally reveal under direct questioning. So elicitation is, it's painless. Nobody feels any pain by giving that information up. And few questions are asked, there's very few questions.

Most of it is just using elicitation techniques. And the other one is the people end up liking you and they'll ask you to come back and talk to them again.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah. It was really interesting from the standpoint of that we do elicitation all the time. Yes. And we don't even notice that we're doing it.

I think I'm reading this book and I'm thinking, oh my goodness. I've used so many of these without knowing that is what I was actually doing. You're right because so much of information, whether it be in business, whether it be in anything, is really brought to you through elicitation techniques and typically, like you said, through non-direct.

Non-direct means not asking the direct question because that comes across too harsh and you don't typically get your answer. But there's almost always a roundabout way. And I loved, the examples you had with kids. 'cause that's a really fun one. And I'm a parent and so I totally I totally see myself utilizing elicitation with them all the time trying to figure out what's going on, what actually happened.

Tell me the truth, right? Did you actually hit your brother or not? But you talk about how it really applies to everything. And so I wanted to spend a little bit of time on elicitation. Today we're talking to a lot of business owners, a lot of business development specialists, executives of all types, people that are in negotiations all the time.

People that sensitive information or knowing the full picture would put them in a more advantageous situation. And so can, do you mind if today we just spend a little bit of time chatting about various elicitation techniques and when it's appropriate and maybe how to apply them?

Jack Schafer Ph.D.: Yeah, that's fine.

No problem.

Kelly Kennedy: Amazing. Before we can get into elicitation techniques, one of the things that you really hammer down on in your book is you have to listen first. You have two ears in one mouth for a reason. Elicitation is about listening. And you paint a perfect example for this.

In the book, when you talk about, I believe it was a US senator who was being questioned and was actually answering like in what is it called? Yeah. Essentially he was incriminating himself. Yes. But the person doing the interview wasn't actively listening to him, and so he missed it.

He missed, yeah. He missed all of the answers that would've incriminated this guy. And obviously it was recorded, so they figured it out after. But in the moment, he could have just been done, but he Yeah, but he kept going.

Jack Schafer Ph.D.: Yeah. And that's what I think one of our, one of our failings is as people is if.

We ask somebody a question and that person is now providing us with an answer. We're not listening to the answer. We're thinking of the next question we wanna ask or the next thing we wanna say. So our focus is on ourselves and our next answer versus what somebody has to say. So what I caution a lot of interviewers is just take a minute or a sec, not a minute, but a second or two, just to listen.

What did that person say? And then you have to ask, what does it mean that person said something? What does it mean? And you analyze it real quickly. And then you have to integrate that information into that person's world. Because a lot of times people say things and we go ah, that doesn't even make sense to me.

It doesn't have to make sense to you. It has to make sense to the person you're talking to, whoever said it, because in their world it makes sense. So it's our job to figure out how they're thinking and what they're, what's in their world.

Kelly Kennedy: Why? And you're talking to an interviewer, right? Like I've interviewed a lot of people, and I'll tell you, Dr. Schafer, I still at times struggle to listen as well as I could and should. And I like, I almost hate to admit it because I listen to people on the show all the time. I listen to people in business development all the time, but I regularly. Find my brain working while I'm listening. And so I have to keep like telling myself, shut up, Kelly.

Get back to this. Listen to the whole thing before you interject yourself. Because I think, when you're interviewing somebody, you are thinking on your feet, on, at a certain level you are right. And so you have to balance listening properly with as well with that thought that's going on in your head.

And as much as I would like to sit here and say, I am an amazing listener, here's what I'll tell you, Dr. Schafer, I'm a good listener, but I still have work to do and I think probably so does 90 to 100% of the population like listening is not easy.

Jack Schafer Ph.D.: Oh, yes. It can be very challenging, especially for extroverts.

I'm an extrovert and what extroverts like to do when there's silence in the conversation. Extroverts will jump in without thinking very spontaneously. Just fill it with words. Introverts on the other hand, if they're silenced, they use that silence to process information and think about what they're gonna say before they say it.

So for extroverts listening is a very difficult skill For introverts. It's easier because they will take that silence and not try to fill it, and they'll process use to silence the process. And I'm only talking about a second or two.

Kelly Kennedy: I definitely do find that I process the information, but like I said, I think just because I am typically interviewing a lot of the times when I'm having these conversations, I do also find myself, I find my mind running too, right?

Yeah. Because there's always usually a lot I wanna ask and an hour flies by. So making sure that I get my questions and that I wanna get is typically on my mind, but it is hard. Yeah. Listening is something that is not easy. And one of the questions I wanted to ask you regarding listening is, what, do you have any advice or tips that you give to your students to help them to listen better?

Jack Schafer Ph.D.: I tell 'em just when somebody is, you're, you ask a question and somebody's giving you an answer, just listen to what they say. Just concentrate on what they're saying. Take a few seconds and then respond. Because in most typical conversations, we want that. Give and take to go very quickly. So as soon as there's silence, you have to answer.

In the interview situations with a suspect, you're not required to answer right away. You're in charge of the interview. You could sit and be very pensive. Shake your head up and down. Rub your chin with your thumb and forefinger and they think they're, thinking about what they think, you're thinking about what they just said, when in fact you're thinking, what's my next step here?

Yeah. I'm analyzing what they're saying, but I don't know if you can do that with a, with an interview situation. It's a little more.

Kelly Kennedy: You can, I'm doing it right now but I don't wanna waste your time.

Jack Schafer Ph.D.: No, but I, but in a, like a interview situation with a person. It might be more difficult 'cause you don't want all that dead time.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah. And let's get real, it's a podcast like, we can edit the bejesus out of this and we do, to make it sound great. Anyway, we cut out all the gaps in spaces for the most part, but No, you're right. It's I think what ends up happening is that you'll be chatting with somebody, they'll be talking about something and you'll think in your mind, oh, I know what I wanna say to that, but, and so obviously as a silly person, you wanna hold onto that.

But the problem with holding onto that is that ne. The rest of what they're saying, because you're so focused on that one question or that one thing you want, that you're not, you stop listening. You completely stop listening. And so regularly for me, I find myself doing that, but then saying, Kelly, quit it.

Putting that outta my mind and coming back to the conversation, and you'll be surprised, Dr. Shafer, how many times I do that, and I completely forget what that question was that I wanted to ask them. But you know what? It probably wasn't that relevant anyway. It probably wasn't that important anyway, because something more important came up because I was listening.

But you can get caught on that one thing and unfortunately miss the entire point or the entire thing that, that your guest was trying to say to you.

Jack Schafer Ph.D.: Yeah. And words don't plop out of people's mouths. It's a very complex process through which we speak, because in our brains we have I an idea, but we think in verbs and nouns.

And then it goes to an area in our brain called Bernanke's area, where that. The verbs announce, hook up to a meaning, and then from the bernanke's area, it shoots over to Broca's area where the meaning hooks up with words, and then it shoots to another part of our brain where we articulate, with our mouth and tongue and speak.

So if you want to get to know what somebody's thinking, the best way to do that is to listen to the words they say, because words are a direct represent representation of what people are thinking. So that's why it's critical to listen to what people say, because then you can read their minds. So the, they say what the what it, the window to the heart is through nonverbals.

If nonverbal behaviors, the window to the heart then verbal behaviors is the representation of what people actually think.

Kelly Kennedy: Interesting. Interesting. What you're suggesting is that people are gonna say what's on their mind, and if you're listening for it, you'll actually hear the real meaning behind what they're saying.

Maybe not the picture they're trying to paint for you. Because the words, if you listen carefully, will spell out actually what's going on in their heads.

Jack Schafer Ph.D.: Yeah. And there and as far as the elicitation techniques, what you do is you wanna psychologically predispose someone to want to ta talk to you.

And that there's one underlying principle, psychological principle that is powerful and that is the need for people to correct. If I say something to somebody and it's wrong, they have a tremendous need, or they're almost driven to say, no, you are wrong, I'm right. Because that puts them higher than you.

Yeah. So what I would, the first, and probably the most powerful elicitation tool or technique you can use is something we call the presumptive. In other words, I'm just gonna make a presumptive statement. You said you were from Saskatchewan, right?

Kelly Kennedy: I'm from Alberta, but very close.

Jack Schafer Ph.D.: Yeah. Thank you.

Kelly Kennedy: I just demonstrated that.

Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness. I did that completely automatically, Dr. Schafer. I didn't even think about it.

Jack Schafer Ph.D.: Yeah, I know. And that's the power of that presumptive statement.

Kelly Kennedy: Wow. Wow. That might be one of the most impactful things that has ever happened in 240 episodes. That was unreal. I can't even believe how quickly and how automatic that was.

Jack Schafer Ph.D.: Yeah. Because you have this tremendous need to Correct. And you know what the irony is? I told you the technique. I know I told you how it worked, and then I use it on you and you don't realize it. I didn't even notice. And that's the power and that's the power of elicitation. Wow. When you put out a presumptive statement, it can be right.

It can be wrong. The people. If it's right, people will say, yes, that's true, that's correct. If it's wrong, people will correct you because it this powerful need to correct others.

Kelly Kennedy: Wow. And you know what's super funny is I'm hearing this and what I'm t like, I can't even believe that just happened. It was like magic.

I can't even believe how automatic that was. It wasn't even like a thought in my brain. But no, I'm just, I'm seeing that the power of that for people, for instance, people reach out to me all the time and say, Kelly, I'm trying to find out who the marketing manager is at this x, y, z conglomerate company.

You went over examples of how to do that in the book or how people do that in the book. And actually one of the examples you've give in the book is absolutely terrifying. And it's basically showing how people through multiple means, through multiple calls, hack into a big gigantic company.

And it's it's multiple steps of elicitation techniques that, yes, that one at a time seem harmless, but when you take all that information and compile it together, suddenly they have full access to the computer system at x, y, z giant company. And we're in the next big we're in the next big hack, we but it's crazy. I didn't realize that was, that so many small or like what are seemingly small things to different departments eventually paint a gigantic picture for these hackers.

Jack Schafer Ph.D.: Yeah, if you wanna know if who's in the position of the person that holds the money, the person that, that makes the fiscal decisions, all you do is call the operator and say, I'd like to talk to Tim Sullivan.

He's your fiscal, or your CEO. No. It's Tim Jones. He's, it's just that easy.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah. That's absolutely crazy. And I'm sure there's a lot of people listening right now who are like, I didn't even know that was possible because it's a lot of these, a lot. But, but Sorry, go ahead.

Jack Schafer Ph.D.: No, I was just gonna say, a, an example of what we do is I do give a class for intelligence officers on elicitation. It's four hours in class in the morning, and then we go out to a very busy mall somewhere in public and we assign our students strangers we'll actually point out a stranger and say, go get that person's computer password.

To their home computer and their work computer. Go get their date of birth, get their social security number, get their debt to income ratio, get their mother's maiden name, and they provide all this information within two, three minutes of meeting a stranger. Somebody's telling them that they're revealing their passwords for their computer.

Wow. It's amazing. The students are just like, I can't believe it. They don't believe me in the classroom. But when they go out and practice, they come back and they say, this is unbelievable how much information we can get just by getting people to like us very quickly. Yeah. And then inserting some tools of the elicitation tools.

Kelly Kennedy: There are 16 elicitation techniques that you go over in the book. Yeah. Do you mind just going through a couple of them for our audience?

Jack Schafer Ph.D.: Yeah the first one and I, my favorite one's the presumptive. That's absolutely my favorite. The second one I like is bracketing. So you're you, so you'd say it's somebody, you're, so you're probably what, 35, 40 years old?

Kelly Kennedy: Yep. 35. You nailed it.

Jack Schafer Ph.D.: I just used bracketing.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah. But you mentioned that bracketing works better if you're on the younger age. 'cause it's more flattering if you bracket them too old, you might get in a little bit of trouble.

Jack Schafer Ph.D.: Yeah. Yeah. I did that once. It was funny. We were in a mall and a student was having trouble getting a lady's date of birth, a clerk.

So I said, ah, come on and I'll show you how it's done. I says, oh, you must be my age, about 55, 60. She says, I.

Oh, let's go. Time to go.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah. She might not be that, she might not be that, that willing to work with you after that one.

Jack Schafer Ph.D.: No, she wasn't.

I just said that's a good example of how not to do it.

Kelly Kennedy: Yes. So bracketing, you basically just give a range and like hopefully it's close enough and most people will correct you based on that number.

Yes. And can you only use that with an age or does that work with a price range?

Jack Schafer Ph.D.: Yeah, it works with a price range. I'll bet your, your your, I you're talking to a business person, I bet your administration, your g and a, your general administration costs and profit margins probably running around 15, 20%.

And then the other person will say, close and then you use a presumptive, oh, 15, 20%. 17% and then they'll correct it. I like when I ask people how much they make, you must make seven, 175, 200,000. I wish I did. As soon as they say I wish I did, it's lower.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah.

Jack Schafer Ph.D.: Because it was more, they wouldn't wish they had more it's lower so you can narrow it down pretty quickly.

Kelly Kennedy: Do people notice that this is happening? Like obviously when you hammered me, I didn't notice it at all, but like when you're asking somebody about like you said, you don't typically ask people what they make, but when you like, make that like range, you're like, Hey, like you must be pretty all right.

Are you making 200, 250,000 bucks a year? And did they notice when they correct you? Or is it just so automatic just like it was for me?

Jack Schafer Ph.D.: No. And what we teach is there's core human behaviors and what our brain does. It looks for threats. And when we see something and the brain says that's not a threat, it puts it in a bucket that says that behavior's not a threat.

If we see it again, we're gonna ignore it. We're not gonna pay attention to it because our brain is continually looking for threats. So what we do is, I call that the human baseline. So what we wanna do is operate in the human baseline. So we're doing things that the brain has already considered non-threatening, and it ignores it.

So you can use these techniques back to back. And nobody knows you're doing it because you're, the brain has already said, that's not a threat. As soon as you do something outside the norm, then the brain goes, uhoh, we better pay attention. This could be a threat.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah. Yeah.

Jack Schafer Ph.D.: That's why.

That's why it works.

Kelly Kennedy: Do you, okay. Can you. If somebody is eliciting you, do you always catch it or does it even go under your radar? Sometimes.

Jack Schafer Ph.D.: Sometimes not. Not so much anymore, but sometimes it does. Sometimes a student will try to elicit, just to beat me in my own game and I'll have to stop, say no, we're not playing that game.

Sometimes I do say something and they start laughing. I go, okay, all right. You win, it's so subtle and we're just prewired Yeah. To wanna answer the questions or the propositions.

Kelly Kennedy: Honestly, the reason that I've loved your book so much is I recognize how incredibly powerful both your books are.

The Like Switch and now The Truth Detector, they are incredibly powerful. Although I will also tell you. That you have to consciously, and you know what, like I still don't use a lot of the techniques because it really does take a incredible conscious effort. I think in order to enact the principles which are so obvious, which are so obviously powerful, but it isn't something that necessarily is natural.

Even though it is natural , it's not something that is consciously natural. Like essentially, if you are going to elicit someone, you would have to, in my mind, especially with 16 different techniques, you really have to put some time into it. You have to really put some time into understanding each technique, when to use it, when an appropriate time to use it.

And then you also mentioned in the book too there's a lot of situations where you're utilizing two, three, or four elicitation techniques in the exact same conversation, just to get the full picture of what it is you're after. So you've obviously practiced so many of these elicitation techniques in your time with the FBI when you're doing interrogations because it's part of the job.

Like you have to know them inside and out 'cause you have to get the confession. But for the average person, like in my mind, it is something that you have to commit to. You have to commit to learning these techniques if you are going to utilize them consistently and properly.

Jack Schafer Ph.D.: But it's not that difficult.

What I try to tell students, pick one technique, no, un know the underlying psychological principle and then use the technique and only use one technique. And I always suggest use the presumptive. I just want you to go out today, go home and just tell some somebody something that's not true and they will correct you.

And it's not difficult and, but here's the problem. We don't like to say things that are not correct. Yeah. So our ego gets in the way. So it's difficult for somebody to make an intentional mistake because it thinks, it makes 'em look bad.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah.

Jack Schafer Ph.D.: When in fact you're getting information that you would not have gotten otherwise.

So you have to suspend your ego.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah. I could see you needing multiple techniques though, because you can't use the presumptive multiple times in the same, like maybe you could, I don't know how often, how many times could you do a elicitation technique, like the presumptive without somebody being like, Hey, okay, I see what you're doing here.

Do people ever figure it out?

Jack Schafer Ph.D.: Very few people figure it out. And the other way, the other more a powerful elicitation technique is the empathic statement. What you do is you take what that person said, how they feel, their physical status, and you just use parallel language to mirror back what they said and they will.

Agree with you. And then they will add something to that conversation. And then you just use another empathic statement and then they will add something. And you could do that for, I did it on an airplane before, where we had to turn the electronic stuff off. So I would talk to somebody next to me, and I remember this one lady, I said, I'm gonna use nothing but empathic statements for an hour.

And so at the end of the conversation I said, ma'am, you're, it was so interesting to talk with you. You're a person worth meeting. And I called her by her first name. Yeah. And she says you are too. And she says, I don't even know your name. I don't even know anything about you. I said, of course you don't.

'cause we spent all the time talking about you. Because people think the world revolves around them. Yeah. And if we finally give somebody that kind of attention, they think it's about time. Somebody figured out I'm the center of attention. They're not gonna say, don't, I'm not the center. Yeah.

They'll say, finally somebody recognized it. So if you put the focus on the other person, then they're gonna feel good. And if you make 'em feel good, they're gonna like you. If they like you, they're gonna tell you more information. All you're doing is setting the stage and the environment to encourage the conversation.

Kelly Kennedy: Can you give me just an example, Dr. Schafer, in the beginning of this episode, we started talking about how if one of your students come up to you and say, Dr. Schafer, you're the best. We absolutely love what you do here. You're gonna call them out and they're bullshit. But how is that different from an empathic statement?

Can you give me the way that you would phrase an empathic statement versus somebody coming up and just saying, Dr. Professor Schafer, you're the best, you're the best teacher here where you don't take that. Okay, what are you doing kid? Versus, wow that's amazing. I really feel good about that.

What is the difference? Like how does the wording change?

Jack Schafer Ph.D.: I was on the elevator one day and there was a student that was smiling. When a student smiles, they're having a good day. So all I said is, so you're having a good day today? And she said, yes, I am. I passed a test. And I said, oh, so that hard work paid off.

So what I'm doing is allowing her to flatter herself. And she's going, yes, the hard work paid off. She's given her a silent pat on the back. And then she went on to say all kinds of other things that she would not have said otherwise. So what you're doing is just repeating back to that person and allow them to you, you're validating them, and then you'll, you give 'em a little chance to flatter themselves.

Flattery is difficult because if a student walks in and say, Dr. Schafer, you're the best professor ever. That direct flattery doesn't work. Your guard's still up. But if they, yeah, your guard goes up. What does this person want? And that's what I ask them, what do you want? It's better to come in and say, I was talking to a friend of mine about what we talked about in class and learned in class, and I found it very valuable. And so of course I'm gonna pat myself on the back and certainly the student says, I'd like your advice, professor Schaeffer. That elevates me. Yeah, right? Yeah. Or the professor.

And a McGraw Hill salesman came in and tried to convince me that the book I was using was wrong. Our book is better. And I said, ma'am you realize what you're just telling me. You're saying my judgment in books is bad. You're saying what I'm doing is bad, I don't wanna hear that.

And she said what should I do? I said, again, professor, I'd like we have a new book out. I'd like your advice on it. Could look it over and gimme some comments? And then they look it over and say, this is a better book than the one I'm using. I think I'll use this book.

Yeah. So what you're not, what you're doing is allowing that person to, to flatter themselves. Without the direct confrontation or making 'em look bad.

Kelly Kennedy: Oh my gosh. Yeah.

It's such a minor change, but it's like the impact that it has is absolutely massive. One of the examples you gave in the book too was I believe it was a woman who was working, she was a scientist of some type, and she'd come up with another idea for a chemical and even though it was great, she went up and said, Hey, I got this new idea.

And her manager immediately was like, okay, that's nice. Whereas, like you said, had she come up and just said, Hey, I would love your advice on this. I think I've, I'm onto something here and let them come around and be like, oh, I think you figured out how to do this more effectively or than we have now.

Yeah. She would've actually got what she wanted, but it's all to do with the way you approach it.

Jack Schafer Ph.D.: Yes, absolutely. And it's it I guess it flies in the face of when we do something great we wanna run and tell the boss like, I did something really good, but. What you're saying is, boss, what you've been doing for 20 years was bad.

Yeah. And that puts him down. So you gotta be gentle about it. Yeah. And just, you can get it, Ellen, by using the right psychological approach.

Kelly Kennedy: Yes. Yes. And it's and it really is. It's like the difference between succeeding and failing is in the way that you communicate it. And so many people don't think about that.

You don't think about that at all. Like it doesn't even cross your mind that maybe the way I want to approach this to get the result I want is different and I need to put some thought into it. But what you're suggesting here is just think about the way that you're bringing something to your boss.

Think about the way that you are approaching something, because you may still want an outcome, but the way to get that outcome might mean you need to change your wording and your approach a little bit. Yeah. And really, first off, to anyone listening, you can find all of this out in the two books that we're talking about.

The like switch and the truth detector. Everything we're talking about here is laid out in those books very well. So if you're liking this and you wanna learn these techniques very much available to you. One of the questions Dr. Schafer, that I had as well is how do I not get elicited to, because we've shown now how hard this is to like, to catch, right?

You nailed me mid show here and I didn't even notice. I just blurted it out automatically. Just like you said, I would, it seems like it would be impossible to not be elicited to.

Jack Schafer Ph.D.: Yeah. What you have to do. And people often say I don't want to use this elicitation because it might be manipulating somebody.

And all I say is that it for in, in response to that criticism is you're just trying to create an environment to encourage people to talk. So what you have to do is recognize how people do it. Then if you don't want to use the tools, you use it in a defensive mode. So if a conman comes up to you and they use these same techniques to get information, so a conman comes up and talks to you, the first thing you wanna say is, I recognize that technique.

I learned about that. And so you name it and you claim it, you say, that's the technique you used and you could call it out. So what I do is with my son, he wanted to learn some of the techniques. So we'd often go try to buy a car with salesman. And so then my son was, is he's using all these techniques on him, and he'd say, oh, that's the puppy dog approach.

I know what that is. And that, that neutralizes it, right? Yeah. Or you're asking me you're using this presumptive, what? Why do you want this information? You gotta think about when a stranger comes up to you. You gotta be always leery. What does that person want the information for? Yeah.

Why are they asking that information? Yeah.

Then you could say, ah, I know what you're up to. I'm not gonna fall for it.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah. Like we're clearly too trusting. So many of us are like, we just, oh yeah. We'd love to help. Not even realizing that we're giving away our passwords, not even realizing that we might be inevitably helping them, break into the companies we run or we own.

Yes. Holy cow, the example you give in the book, and we're not gonna give it away. I want people to read it. But ultimately, the example you give in the book is, was essentially a how to for how a company, essentially had their computer system completely hacked, completely overwhelmed the criminal then had full access to all the files, to the financials, to everything.

Literally utilizing around four or five different avenues to elicit small pieces of information that individually were meaningless. But once they were all put together was the full access to the system and was able to do whatever they wanted, it was terrifying to be honest. It was terrifying.

And you're saying this is happening around United States, Canada, and the world every single day?

Jack Schafer Ph.D.: Yes. Oh, all the time. And I just give you a real quick example. I, there was an, I was teaching intelligence officers in a class about elicitation, and I said, people give up their social security numbers in a drop of a hat within a couple minutes of meeting them.

One of the students says, no, I'd never give up my social security number. And I'm too smart, I'm too clever. I know how all this is done. I said, fine. And so you throw a gauntlet down, I'm gonna pick the challenge up. So little bit by bit. I was able to get his social security number and right before we broke for lunch to go to the mall to meet and exercise, do the exercise, I wrote his social security number on the board.

So his mouth drops open. He goes it's not fair. I said, we're talking espionage, sir. There's no fairness in espionage. Yeah. He says you cheated. I said no. It's called espionage. That's right. That's right. And so I was telling my students the story and at Western, and they're going like, we'd like to see you do that.

And I said, okay, fine. So I had five students who had back to back classes with me. So we went to the next class and I said, I'll do it in the next class, but you pick the target so it's fair. You pick the person you want me to get their social security number from. And they said, oh, this kid over here. I said, fine.

So at the, about three quarters of the way through the class, of course I elicited his social security number. And those five students are laughing and they're going, he's, he looks at him and says, what's so funny? So you just gave him your social security number? He said, no, I didn't. And he looks at me and he said, did I?

I go, yeah, you did. Wow. And he goes, holy smokes. I didn't even know I did it.

Kelly Kennedy: You don't even know it. That's the craziest thing about the whole thing, is that people don't even realize what they're giving you. It's like you said, it's slipping so beneath the radar that they're consciously not even knowing what they're doing.

Jack Schafer Ph.D.: Yeah. We were, we my wife and I were looking at some real estate and it was in a flood zone. We're going onto the basement and it's brand new remodel. And I thought I wonder if it's brand new remodel because of a flood, or is it because they just remodeled the basement? So I looked around and I just mentioned to the real estate agent.

I said, geez, they did a really good job repairing after the flood. And she said, oh, yeah, they did.

Kelly Kennedy: Wow. Yeah. And and she probably had no idea what she just said to you.

Jack Schafer Ph.D.: Didn't even, no, we just said thank you and we left.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah. Yeah. It's it's unreal. It's unreal. If if people are listening to this Dr. Shafer and they're like, okay I'm seeing this. This is powerful. This is powerful information, especially for people in business, especially for people who are negotiating anything at all, heck, negotiating with their wives or husbands, right?

It is that powerful. Ultimately, what advice do you give to people who maybe want to start practicing these things? What's the best way to practice these techniques?

Jack Schafer Ph.D.: Like I mentioned earlier, just pick one technique. I, and I, like I said before I would ask, tell people to use the presumptive.

Go home, see a friend, just talk to a stranger and just see something wrong. Just say something and watch. Watch the person. Correct. And then what you wanna do, the second technique, you use it, you do that until you're very comfortable. Yeah. And once they say that they give you that information, then you wanna use an empathic statement, practice that, and turn that statement into an empathic statement.

The best way to do that is to say, so you, and then add or use the parallel language backed with them. And the reason you wanna do that is so you, is just a way for you to get in the practice of keeping the focus on the other person. Because as soon as you say, I know how you feel, the other person says, no you don't because you're not me.

That's right. So you use a presumptive and then in the example with Saskatchewan and you say, no, I'm from Alberta. And then I would say, oh, Alberta must be. Something. Yeah. Yeah. Add something to that and you'll say, no, it's a really nice this and nice that. And Oh, so it must be really cold up there in the Alberta, in the winter.

And then you'll say yeah, it gets a little chilly. And then you could keep the whole conversation going. Yeah. And now you're revealing, you're directing that conversation very subtly, and you're now gonna reveal a lot of things about you. Yeah. Like your kids probably play a lot of hockey.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah.

Suddenly it's all about, it's all about them. They're revealing all the information and you're just keeping your mouth shut. You're not having to give anything.

Jack Schafer Ph.D.: Yes. And it's just so your kids play a lot of hockey, so they must be this, and so your wife must, she probably works because, hockey's an expensive sport.

So you go no, she doesn't work. She's, she stays at home and raises him. Oh yeah, she does work. Oh, she must have a pretty important job. And then of course she said yes she does. And, just on and on with empathic statements and I could get your whole history.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah.

Jack Schafer Ph.D.: And you won't even realize it.

You'll say, Jack's such a nice guy.

Kelly Kennedy: He cares so much about me and what I'm doing. Yes. Yeah. They basically, you're learning everything and they're loving you for it.

Jack Schafer Ph.D.: In a dating situation, I tell the students, if you're going out with your date, make it all about her. Use empathic statements. Find that common ground. Don't say things about you. Keep it on them. And they'll walk away going oh my gosh, you's such a good listener.

Kelly Kennedy: My gosh.

Jack Schafer Ph.D.: You use it in business. You can use it on the job, you can use it in business, you can use it in social situations.

Yeah. Next time you go to a party or a social gathering, just chat with somebody and practice empathic statement. Yeah. And then practice presumptive. And then I would go with a bracket and then pick another technique that you like out of the 16. And then I typically rely on four to five are my go-to techniques.

Yes. And then there's certain situations where I can use some of the more obscure ones, but they're there for a reason. Because they're situations in which you might want to use them, but practice. Just practice, yeah. And get confident. Use it enough.

Kelly Kennedy: Basically you're, there's a lot of tools available in a toolkit, you probably need a Phillips more than you need a Robertson or whatever, right?

Yeah. Yeah. So there's certain techniques that you're gonna use more of, but that doesn't mean that you don't need a Robertson sometimes.

Jack Schafer Ph.D.: Yes. That's what I mean. So you give people a lot of tools and once people get confidence in doing it, then it comes out smooth.

Kelly Kennedy: Like I wonder once you once you have these techniques really down how often you would just find yourself even unconsciously doing it like on a certain level, right? It just becomes part of your interaction, right?

Jack Schafer Ph.D.: Yeah. It's very, yeah. It's, it well be because it's a lot of what we do naturally.

Kelly Kennedy: That's right. Yeah.

Jack Schafer Ph.D.: All elicitation is identifying how people communicate. Yes. And then. Based on psychological principles, we're directing that conversation towards our objective.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah, and I think that's something really important for you to touch on is the fact that like the, what we're talking about here isn't oh, these people are, if they use these, it's a little bit dirty.

Understand you are using these elicitation techniques. You just haven't named them yet. You are already using these when you're negotiating with your kids, when you're negotiating a business deal. These are things that you are automatically doing. You just don't even know you're doing it. And what Dr. Schafer is saying is know what you're doing and it'll make you that much more powerful.

Jack Schafer Ph.D.: Yes. So these are natural things. So all we did was take and the like switch was the same way. We take what people already do, but they don't know they do it. Yeah. And we're teaching people to recognize what they do.

Therefore, they can put the best view forward. They can develop stronger relationships because you know how relationships are built.

Kelly Kennedy: Yes. Yes. One of the techniques before we close up today that I wanna chat about is one that your son developed. Can we chat a little bit about Brian's loop?

Jack Schafer Ph.D.: Oh, yeah. And again, when I was teaching the intelligence officers, my son was a role player and he was the bad guy.

He had some bomb making equipment and they wanted to find out if he did it or not. And they were, he was driving the interrogators crazy. And so then I reviewed the tapes to see what he was doing, and it's, and I called it Brian's loop. What he did was he decided what he was going to say to that interrogator.

The same way we do when we go out in the public. We should, before we go out to pub in the public, we should already decide what we're gonna reveal about ourselves and say Nothing more. This is what I'm gonna reveal. Nothing more. That's all he did. These are the facts I'm gonna reveal. So what he does is he says.

Yes. No, I don't know. He answers the question. Yes. No, I don't know. He tells the person what he does know, and then he puts it back on them. And that's a very powerful counter elicitation technique.

Kelly Kennedy: That's right. That's right. Yeah. It's I enjoyed that part of the book. Yeah. And I just thought about it from down point of that actually makes a lot of sense because we ultimately do have certain things we do not want to reveal, and certain things we do want to reveal.

And so what it really hammers in on is you can answer yes, no, I don't know, and follow it up with something you do know that you're willing to reveal. And only ever do that. And basically, you can stop yourself from ever being elicited, but you need to recognize what it is you're willing to reveal. Make that, a standard is for yourself, and then just answer every question.

Yes. No, I don't know. Plus something else. Plus the, one of the things you're willing to reveal and you can really, like you said, put 'em in a loop. Put 'em in a circle where they're not gonna get what they want from you.

Jack Schafer Ph.D.: Yeah. And I spent some time teaching embassy officials, 'cause they often go to these big parties with a lot of other intelligence officers and are trying to elicit from one another, get secrets.

And they the officials say, can you just train us on Brian's loop? And they said they tried it and they said it was very powerful. Yes. Because they don't reveal anything. But yet they counter, they put it on the other person using elicitation techniques. So they're getting information without giving information.

Yeah. Yeah. It's, and it's a conscious, it's a conscious defense mechanism. That's right. And in a way we talk about countering it in public with normal people. I think what you're willing to say, if somebody asks you a question, you could be polite. Yes. No, I don't know. Tell 'em what you're willing to tell 'em and then say, you, you obviously have a more interesting life than I do.

Yeah. And just put it back on them. Yeah.

Kelly Kennedy: Dr. Schafer we've been pretty, pretty easy going with this. I think we've been looking at the positive light of things and how we can use this for business, but me and you both know that we live in a world where there's a lot of people out to screw us.

There just is, right? Yes. So a lot of this information understand it's not just for you to get information to get the best business deal or to get the information on your competitor or whatever else you're trying to figure out. Understand that if you understand elicitation, you are also protecting yourself in a time that I think has never been more dangerous for people to lose their own personal information.

Jack Schafer Ph.D.: Yeah. And that's what I think it's a offensive tool and a defensive tool. Yeah. So it's an offensive tool. If you need it, you can use it, but more importantly, you've got to be able to defend yourself. That's right. Especially in today's world. Yeah, that's right. We're con men are our constantly using these techniques.

To get information from people.

Kelly Kennedy: I, at this point, am probably getting five to 10 spam calls every single day. Every day. And I'm one person. Yeah. If I'm getting five to 10 every day, that means that there's hundreds of millions of spam calls going out every single day. So it has never been more important to be able to identify someone who's trying to elicit you for your own good.

Jack Schafer Ph.D.: Yes. Another a the secret is if you don't know the person, don't talk to 'em. Yeah. Yeah. Unless there's a reason to talk to him.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah. Yeah.

I really do feel bad because they do tend to target, the older generations who just are not prepared. They just weren't prepared to have to deal with spammers on this level or the internet or things like this.

And so it sucks because, for every single person who does see it coming, there's someone who doesn't.

Jack Schafer Ph.D.: Yeah. But that's why they you have to become at least aware that these techniques are out there so you can name it and then you claim it. You say, Hey, I know what you're doing. And then say, okay, let's deal with it.

Kelly Kennedy: Dr. Shafer, this has been amazing. I love your books. I hope you write another one. First off, I can't wait to interview you on your next book. I don't know what it is, but I sure hope you write it and mark. Alright. And before we get into that today I know you also do public speaking, you do high level consulting.

Can we chat about that quickly?

Jack Schafer Ph.D.: Yeah I go out on, on specific cases when I'm asked to do and consult and train. A lot of businesses call me out to train their salespeople on how to develop quick rapport, how to find out who owns the decision making position to find out how do they close a sale.

How do they overcome objections? How they find out what the objections are. Yeah. A lot of times in sales people won't even tell you what the objections are. That's right. So elicitation is a great way to find out what the objections are. So I do a lot of the the business and I do a lot of police training on interviewing.

So that's the general area of business and police training.

Kelly Kennedy: Do you, you still do public speaking as well?

Jack Schafer Ph.D.: Yes, I do. I still give speeches.

Kelly Kennedy: Amazing. Amazing. And if people wanna get ahold of you to either book you for a speech or to chat about a consultation project, what's the best way for them to reach you?

Jack Schafer Ph.D.: Yeah, the best way is to email me at Jack Schafer 500. At yahoo.com. Perfect. Perfect.

Kelly Kennedy: And obviously if you're hearing this and you have not yet read the like Switch or the truth detector, just do it. And guys, you guys know I don't push books heavy. This is an absolutely amazing series. You do need to read it, Dr.

Schafer, it was an honor to have you on again.

Jack Schafer Ph.D.: Thank you.

Kelly Kennedy: Until next time, this has been the Business Development Podcast and we will catch you on. The flip side.

Outro: This has been the Business Development Podcast with Kelly Kennedy. Kelly has 15 years in sales and business development experience within the Alberta oil and gas industry, and founded his own business development firm in 2020.

His passion and his specialization is in customer relationship generation and business development. The show is brought to you by Capital Business Development, your Business Development specialists. For more, we invite you to the website @ www.capitalbd.ca. See you next time on the Business Development Podcast.