The Clearest Voice in the Room Wins with Salvatore Manzi

No one has ever left a meeting saying, wow, that was an amazing slide.

Did you see that slide?

Oh, that bullet point, that bullet point.

We're going to talk about that bullet point for the rest of the life.

No, no.

They talk about the stories.

The great Mark Cuban once said, business happens over years and years.

Value is measured in the total upside of a business relationship, not by how much you squeezed out in any one deal.

And we couldn't agree.

This is the Business Development Podcast, based in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada and broadcasting to the world.

You'll get expert business development advice, tips and experiences and you'll hear interviews with business owners, CEOs and business development reps. You'll get actionable advice on how to grow business.

Brought to you by Capital Business Development, capitalbd.

Ca.

Let's do it.

Welcome to the Business Development Podcast.

And now your expert host, Kelly Kennedy.

Hello.

Welcome to episode 360 of the Business Development Podcast.

And for this amazing milestone episode, it is my pleasure to bring you Salvatore Manzi.

Salvatore helps bold thinkers communicate with clarity, confidence and presence, whether they're leading teams, inspiring audiences, or navigating the most high stakes moments of their careers.

A globally experienced speaker, facilitator and leadership coach, Salvatore has spent over two decades helping leaders in tech, finance and mission driven sectors turn complex ideas into clear, compelling stories that move people to action.

From coaching TEDx and United nations speakers to guiding executive teams through multimillion dollar transformations, his work blends neuroscience, storytelling and mindful leadership to unlock authentic influence.

He has helped raise over $220 million in funding, trained politicians and CEOs alike, and built communication frameworks that drive trust and performance under pressure.

His mission is simple but transformative.

To help leaders speak with clarity, lead with authenticity, and inspire real change.

Because in a noisy world full of ideas, the ones that change everything aren't always the loudest, but they are the clearest.

Salvatore, what an honor and a privilege to have you on my show today.

Thank you.

It's an honor to be here.

Kelly, man.

Yeah, it's so funny how often I miscommunicate and screw up those intros.

And nobody knows, but all my guests know.

I think there is something about listening to somebody else talk about my experience.

That's sort of what.

Wait.

Yeah.

Oh, wow.

Yeah, well, we were just talking about that ahead of the show.

Right?

It's like you, you get all of these, like, accolades, whether it's awards or a major achievement.

You had mentioned Elon Musk becoming the world's, you know, wealthiest man and just being like oh, that's cool.

Let's get back to work.

Right?

Like, what.

What else do you do?

It's amazing.

We all do these things.

If we have a career of, you know, 20 plus years, it's pretty likely we've done something along that way.

But at the same time, I think people are always a little bit surprised when you do read it to them, and then they're like, holy crap, that is me.

Yeah, it's.

It's shocking and inspiring to, like, hear people's background and a full scope.

And I work with a lot of speakers and when I'm helping them prepare to introduce the keynote, because I work with maybe the conference organizer and they're going to introduce the keynote speaker.

The keynote speakers, I was like, don't let them go on and on and on and on and on about me.

Like, I can't.

How do you get up and, like, speak when the introduction was 15 minutes and your talk is five, you know?

Yeah.

Oh, my goodness.

Man.

Yeah.

It's funny how little communication actually comes up on this show.

So much of it is about, like, effective leadership and, you know, how do you do marketing and how do you do sales and business development or the new world of personal branding?

But yet, when you look at probably the most influential skill that anyone can have, it's clear communication.

And yet it comes up so little on this show, which is why I'm excited to chat with you today.

It's great to be here.

Yeah.

I like to say you all make a living with your voice, whether it's in writing or actual verbal, you make a living with your voice.

And a lot of us continue to do what we see other people do, or we continue to use what we felt worked before.

And what got us to where we are is not what's going to get us ahead.

So spending some time on developing the communication skills is an essential part of anybody's business development plan.

Yeah, absolutely.

Absolutely.

Well, we're gonna dive deep into it today, and hopefully people are gonna walk away with some clearer ideas on how to communicate more effectively.

But before we do that, I wanna learn about you and your journey.

How did you end up on this path?

You've done some pretty incredible things over the past 20 years.

It's been a wonderful ride.

My father was a conference speaker, and he would come home so lit up from every one of those engagements.

I, as a child, was like, I gotta find.

I gotta check this out.

I gotta figure it out.

When I got my chance to get up on the stage, I lost my voice.

My voice, it's so hard that I lost this speaking ability and I had to walk off the stage.

Just.

It was embarrassing, but it was, it sparked curiosity.

I'm like, how can my body betray me?

And analytical, very analytical person.

I dove into neuroscience, psychology, organizational behavior to understand how the brain works, how we relate to each other, how the brain processes information as we communicate, and realized that as a more analytical, data driven person myself, more introverted, I don't necessarily own the spotlight the way other people own the spotlight.

So the public speaking trainings and the public speaking coaching out there for extroverted sales marketing leaders doesn't always work for the quiet leaders.

And when I started to realize, okay, what I need are some frameworks to organize my content because I know how the brain works, I need delivery techniques that are going to help me as an introvert, keep from feeling like I'm on fire while I'm communicating.

And I need present strategies that are going to help me project the presence that I want to have in all of those situations.

And I've been been coaching and using that for the last 20 years with a lot of wonderful clients.

What was it that was like, this is my calling.

I am going to teach people how to be brave on stage, how to be able to communicate clearly even though they're feeling tongue tied.

Like, I, you know, I mean, I want to pause here and just let you know that that was me too.

My first speech I ever gave was after graduated from college.

I got asked to come back and speak to the next class.

Man, I was just like, like, I don't know what to say here.

And it's funny because I was like, I feel like I was very well pre boom for that.

But at the same time, it was just once I got up there, I was so nervous.

And I was also, like, at one point in time so nervous that, like, I would shake at interviews sometimes.

Like, it would feel so overwhelming.

And, you know, I mean, you, you mentioned introverted.

I'm introverted.

And people, people be like, well, Kelly, like, you're a podcaster.

I'm like, yeah, but like, there's like a thousand miles between me and you.

Right now.

I am in a room by myself having this conversation with Salvador, right?

Like, it is not the same thing.

And I think that's like, important for a lot of people to remember is that even though, like, yes, I'm a podcaster, yes, I'm public, I'm out there inside, I'm still very much introverted, I still spend a lot of my Time alone.

It's.

I've been.

I've heard that the way that you resource yourself is what really determines introverted versus extrovert.

Extroverts get energy from the engagement and from the interacting and networking, all those things.

Introverts get their energy from alone time, quiet time, time to think.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I would rather be in the cabin in the woods reading a book over in a networking event any day of the week.

Yes.

We live in a society that is geared towards extroversion, that rewards extroversion and calls it charm or whatever.

Time.

Sometimes.

So those of us who are more introverted have to learn the skills to cope.

Yes.

Like, I have a whole squad of emotional support extroverts that I will go out with.

Right.

If I have to go to a networking event, I will grab one of my friends and I'll be like, you're doing the talking.

Help grease the wheel right here.

Yeah.

And what I learned is when I'm in the spotlight, I can turn that spotlight to somebody else.

I can turn the spotlight off of me and onto my topic.

I can turn it on to a person.

Yes.

Not being in the spotlight and in the room means that at any moment I can be called on.

And then.

Right.

I don't know if anybody out there is listening and they felt like they were in a meeting and they were just waiting for that moment that somebody was going to call on them and they were feeling anticipation.

Oh, my gosh.

Yeah.

It's so much better to just own the spotlight and then, like, from that commanding presence, be able to direct it to where you want to go.

So you asked the question.

The.

My answer would be, for me, the aha moment came when I understood how my brain worked and how communication works through neuroscience and psychology.

I was like, wait a minute.

I thought this was something that people were just naturally gifted with.

It's not.

It's something that can be trained.

I learned and then started helping other people get up on the stage or on the boardroom or whatever.

That's when I was like, oh, I'm on the path.

This is my mission.

Yeah.

It's really interesting because, you know, I've interviewed TV anchors who now teach, you know, public speaking.

And, you know, some of them have become pretty good friends.

And.

And I'll ask them and I'll say, like, well, what's the secret?

And they'll say, well, Kelly, you just gotta, like, you just got to practice it, like, 10 times.

Like, do the whole speech 10 times.

I'm like, I'm not Going to do like a 30 minute speech 10 times.

Like, that's not who I am.

I'm going to get so nervous halfway through that preparation that I'm going to be like, screw this.

I'm such a.

And maybe it's the podcaster in me, maybe it's somebody who's really shot from the C for a long time, but I know the subjects that I speak to.

I pretty much only speak to, you know, podcasting, business development, sales.

Like, that's my world.

That's what I can speak to from the top of my head very easily at any time.

And when I put together speaking presentations, whether that's, you know, for a webinar to present to a group or, you know, to do a keynote of some type, usually I'm teaching a subject that I know very well.

And so for me, and it's very interesting because actually I did one about a month ago and I wanted to maybe run it by you because I want to go through what happened to me just for our listeners, too, because I think it's important, and maybe you can coach me through what.

What happened to me in that moment.

Okay, So I was fine when I got up there.

I felt very well prepared.

I'll tell you what I tried to do.

I tried to write a very formal introduction.

And that isn't me.

That isn't authentically me.

And so when I got up there, like you said, I, like, choked up.

I don't think anyone noticed, but for a second, I thought I was gonna lose my voice because I had this, like, well, rehearsed introduction that I didn't feel like I owned.

I didn't feel like I owned it.

It didn't feel like me.

And it was funny because after I thought, well, I should have let off with a story because I. I do so much storytelling in podcasting that if I would have just led it with a story, it would have got me through that first minute or two minutes and gave me time for that anxiety to come down.

But it was funny because I was trying to do that very, like, formal introduction.

I got about halfway through Salvatore and I was like, okay, screw this.

I'm cutting to the end and I'm getting into my thing.

And I did it very quickly and I. I'm not sure anyone noticed.

I hope not.

No.

But I got into the subject and, dude, I flew.

I flew because I love talking about it.

I was so well, well prepared.

I. I killed it.

I killed the whole thing.

But it was all.

But it was almost the intro.

Yeah, that Killed me.

That like two paragraph intro, as silly as that sounds, almost destroyed the whole thing.

Absolutely makes sense.

First of all, law premise, the first things that we say are going to be, they have a heavily weighted impact on our audience because of judgment.

We're making judgments, micro judgments, within the first five seconds so that we all know the first words of a.

And that first opening is going to set the course.

So you had a high pressure and I want to commend you, you tried something different.

You went formal, you went outside of your comfort zone.

I tell every one of my clients, you need to do at least one thing around communication that puts you outside of your comfort zone.

You gotta try new things.

So you went formal outside of your comfort zone when you realize this is not me, this is not working, not working, and took to where you can go, which I applaud, that there's a, there's a risk in trying something new and then giving up versus trying something new and being like, oh, okay, let's keep, let's just try this different thing and, and yeah, and going.

Which is what you did.

Good job.

Thank you.

Thank you.

The moment I was like, this sucks, I shouldn't have done this.

It's so funny, right?

Because I look at these like very formal, practiced speeches and I've had lots of conversations with, with friends and colleagues, very high level people, high level speakers themselves, who basically said, like, Kelly, like, like you, you have your things that you can talk about, you have your presentation.

You don't need to have all of this, like heavily prepared, scripted introductions.

I spoke with a very, very popular keynote just recently.

He's part of one of the communities I have called Catalyst Club.

And he said, Kelly, like, I don't script anything.

I have like three stories and I have a presentation.

But he said ultimately with that presentation, I have about a couple different directions I can go with every slide.

And he's like, I don't know what I'm actually going to talk about when I hop up on that stage and it's like, dude, like, you've done TedX.

He's like, yeah, like 100%.

And I kill it.

Because it's organic, it's natural, it's me in the moment and I'm calm and collected about it.

And I don't know, I guess, what's your opinion on that?

Is it better to be calm and collected and speak from the heart or is it better to have this like, well, scripted presentation?

I don't know.

It's, it's gonna be, I love this Question.

It's so delicious.

I want to unpack it for a minute.

Is this when you're just starting out and you're developing your talking points, your expertise and.

And workshopping how you are going to communicate your core brilliance to others.

There is a bit of scripting, there is a bit of iteration, there is a bit of trial and error where once you've got those talking points down, you don't need them anymore.

You can show up on any stage and you move your bars, you're hitting.

It's.

Yeah, you know, you ask Madonna to get up and sing some of her hits.

She doesn't have to go back and go, okay, what was the lyric on that?

Right.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a good point.

So it's a both and what I would offer to anybody out there, listening.

Start today.

Write down the 10 questions that you most often get that you have to answer or the 10 things that you most frequently talk about.

And come up.

Create talking points.

Because here's the challenge.

People want to hear sound bites.

They want to hear what you have to say in as few words as possible.

And the first time you talk about your expertise, it's not going to be a sound bite.

It's going to be a big story.

Right?

Yeah.

Iterating.

If you have your 10 top, your top 10 talking points and you have the sound bites for each one of them, you're well on the path to no longer scripting and simply putting out there all of your amazing brilliance.

Well, it's interesting because if I think about that from the standpoint of.

For that presentation I was telling you about, I have talked about those things a hundred times on the show.

And so, like, on a certain level, it's like, I guess I have talked to them, I have found the sound bites.

And so once it was time to roll, even though it was.

It was a newer industry that I was doing this show for, but everything else was pretty much the same.

And so I was able to just fly with it because I knew the subject like the back of my hand.

I knew the way that I teach it.

Like I coach business development.

So I taught them in the same way that I do training and coaching.

And it felt so natural, like, I had so much fun once I got into that moment.

But my gosh, it was like, it was that, like, preparation, that, like, silly trying something different preparation.

And like I said when I was talking to one of my members later, he was saying, like, kelly, next time just lead with a story.

He's like, I always lead With a story because it's your authentic experience, how can you screw it up?

Disagree, disagree, really try something different every time.

Once you have your talking points as you do now, your goal is to deliver it in a different way.

Find a new way that pushes you outside of your comfort zone, that's gonna you in some way to learn something new about yourself and your means of delivery.

And then you keep iterating.

Like right now, I could, I could give you my bars, I could give you my talking points, but if I'm going to do that, I have to challenge myself.

How am I going to use my eyes differently?

How am I going to lower my voice, body differently?

How am I going to use my gestures differently?

Like you.

Once you've got your content down, then the game becomes how can you deliver it in a way that is unique and teaches you new ways to communicate and connect?

Because if you don't do that, you're always going to be communicating to the same subset, the same information, and not excelling and going forward.

Interesting, interesting.

So are you suggesting that we have to differentiate ourselves from the content we speak of?

Are you disconnecting them?

If you look at it from that standpoint, you're kind of saying the content is one thing, your delivery is something completely different.

I think there is some truth I'm not sure I'm completely following.

Your content is going to be the same, but it's going to change depending on your audience every time.

All communication is contextual.

What are you talking about?

Who are you talking to?

What's the environment that you are talking in?

Those three variables will always change how your content is structured.

But your premise, whatever your.

Your talking point is.

My.

One of my talking points is.

Metaphors move minds.

Metaphors move minds.

If I just give you data, it's never really going to stick with you.

You can only remember so much data.

But if I put a story to it, if I connect some sort of a visual or an emotional aspect with a story, a metaphor, an analogy, then you're going to remember my data point, right?

That's my talking point.

But I can adjust that talking point to whoever my audience is, whatever the environment is.

So that then becomes this game of like, how am I going to deliver it for that audience?

Make sense?

Okay, yes.

No, that does make sense.

So basically we're saying is like, the content might be the same, but it's different whether you're speaking to, you know, oil and gas executives or hotel owners.

Take me into communicating a bold idea.

I know that sometimes, you know, not even sometimes.

A lot of times on this show, we have people giving very new ideas, giving very big visions, bold visions.

The challenge with bold visions is that they make a lot of sense to the person who has them, and they are incredibly hard to communicate.

And you specialize in helping leaders communicate bold ideas.

What does that take?

How do you do that?

There's the curse of knowledge.

We understand our world so well that when we try to explain it to somebody else, we don't always make the connection of where to start, how much context do I give you, how much background?

I don't want to go too far because that starts to feel patronizing.

I don't want to go too soft because then you don't have any idea what I'm actually talking about.

So when it comes to anybody communicating their bold vision out to the world, they need to iterate.

They need to get feedback.

They need somebody outside of their head to give them feedback on.

And ideally, you're working with a professional who can ask, okay, number one, what is your goal?

What is your intention?

Before we started recording, you said, what's your goal with this?

And yeah, yeah, right.

Like, what is.

What is my goal in being a part of this?

So that's what I would do as a professional.

I would ask, what is your goal with sharing this vision?

How do you want them to feel and what do you want them to think to do?

To decide at the end of your communication that's going to decide how much context you want to give when you share it.

Okay, interesting.

I actually take the exact same strategy when I'm working business development with companies is that we have to start with the end in mind before we can put together the roadmap to get there.

It's very interesting because to me, that seems so logical that, like, no matter what you're doing, you should always do it with a full understanding of where you want to go and what you want to do.

But it's funny because I'll walk into organizations, they're like, kelly, I've never even thought about that before.

We just wanted business development.

We didn't even.

We didn't even know that you could put together a plan on how to actually achieve revenue with that.

Like, we know we want to achieve revenue, but, like, you tied it right to the dollar and send.

It's like, well, yeah, like, how else are you doing planning?

It's very interesting that this exact same thing applies to communicating a bold idea.

Yeah, it's.

We're all caught in that trap of doers.

Like we can do, and we can get that, that sense of accomplishment from having done something.

But we have to always stop and ask why?

What's the intention?

What's the driving force?

What's actually leading us to this?

This leads to my number one principle in communication, and that is you, then me.

Whenever I start speaking, I need to keep in mind the audience and I need to think and talk about what is it that they're thinking, feeling, experiencing, hoping for, worried about in relation to my topic.

Because if I can start with you, it's going to help me present my ideas, my thoughts and so forth.

So the idea being, before I give you my bold vision, I need to talk to you about you in relation to that vision and thereby removing all the doubts and defensiveness and like questioning so that you can actually receive whatever it is I have to share.

I can't do that if I haven't spent some time thinking about you and thinking about what I want you to feel and think, do or decide after we have a conversation.

Interesting, interesting.

I want to just spend a minute there with you for a second.

So let's say that you're giving a keynote speech.

You've been asked to give a keynote speech on your expertise to an industry that maybe you're not as familiar with.

And I know that does happen to, to a lot of people.

What do you recommend doing in order to prepare for that keynote, to make sure that you can connect with those people?

Because I know in business development and marketing, you have to speak to people in words and terms that they understand.

If you create marketing material for car tires and yet you're selling to like, let's call it a big mining company who only has those big mining trucks, your car tires aren't going to make any sense to them.

They're not going to connect with that.

And so you have to speak to them in terms and products and ideas that they understand.

How do you do that when you're preparing for, let's say, an industry speech to a new industry, maybe one that you haven't communicated with before, you're not a hundred percent sure what the terms and, and the connective words might be.

What advice would you give to people who have to make that speech?

I love the question.

And it kind of leads into.

I have a resource on my website that you can download.

It's prompts.

I call it the youth and me prompts.

And it has you ask all of the questions.

There's about 30 prompts.

And by asking those questions, and let's face it you can go into ChatGPT and say, hey, these are my people that I'm going to be talking to.

They want me to respond to these and put the prompts in there, and it'll give you both the language that connects with that particular audience to your words.

Like, one of the things I hate to tell people, but it's a hard truth they need to understand, is this.

People don't care who you are until they know how much you care.

They need to know why you're speaking.

Right?

So if you can establish that by speaking to them about all of these things that are related to them, making your topic relevant to them, then they're going to care about who you are and what you have to say.

So take the prompts, do the research with AI and whoever that key person is in the audience.

And I would offer this.

If you are a keynote speaker or if you are speaking to a large room, think about the one person in that room that you actually want to reach and guide your communication towards them.

There's still ways to do not just a you than me, but an all y' all than me.

I'm from Kansas, as you pointed out.

I can say that.

Yeah, all y' all than me.

You might say something more like many of you are thinking about.

And I know a lot of you have been concerned and I imagine some of you are hoping to.

So you can still speak to the generalities, but keep that one person in mind who's the key stakeholder that you're trying to convince and keep shaping your content and message to that.

Interesting.

Okay.

Okay.

So if your audience isn't going to connect until they know that you care, how do you show them that you care as quickly as humanly possible so that your entire speech hits, you know,.

A lot of you are probably wondering that same thing.

How do I. I'm doing it right now.

You get it right.

You speak in terms of what it's like to be in their shoes, but yourself and their shoes and speak to their world from their perspective, the way you understand it.

And a lot of people, especially sales office, you know, I worked with a very large team.

I won't mention which one, but there were 800 sales leaders in this team and I was working with them for a year.

And the pushback I kept getting is, what if I get it wrong?

What if I say, well, I imagine that you're thinking and I'm wrong.

And I'm like, then that's great.

You get feedback about the correct thing.

You are a grown Person, you can pivot to where they're going, but not making the attempt at understanding what's going on in their world is going to leave them wondering, do you even know me?

Do you know who I am?

I would say this, though.

Don't ever make assumptions that a person is frustrated because people just don't like being told that people don't.

You see, people don't like that.

I'm just gonna go over here and you look like a real tight ass.

How are you doing?

Yeah, let's make some broad generalities.

Fair enough.

Assume positive things.

You look like you're having a great day.

Well, if you want to say, you could say it like, you know, if I were in your situation, I would feel frustration right now.

And what, what happens?

It.

It removes it enough for them to like, okay, yeah, you get me.

But if you say something like, well, you, you seem a little frustrated with it.

No, don't tell me I'm frustrated.

I can right now, right?

Like, become a toddler and you start throwing things.

So don't do that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

How did you learn so much about the psychology of speaking?

Like, 20 years.

I feel like there's a lot of people who wouldn't make that connection to be like, okay, I think right now I need to step back in and I need to ask.

I need to ask a question that tones this situation down for a second.

I know that, like, I know it's important, but I also feel like it's something that really you would have to learn or practice.

Like, I don't think it's common for the everyday person to do that.

Empathy, intelligence is something that can be trained.

People ask me, can you teach empathy?

Yes.

Practice.

You than me.

If you hold yourself to saying one thing about the other person before talking about yourself, your idea, your agenda, you will develop a mechanism of empathy that can grow or shrink depending on the context of the situation.

So what?

The way I learned it, I lived in.

As you pointed out, I've lived in so many different cities all around the world.

And in my experience of being in these other cultures, I had to learn not just how to respect, but how to operate and survive in different organizations and different cultures.

That helped me develop a sensitivity to a person's experience.

But by following the you, then me, it gave me an opportunity to create rapport and connection and learn along the way what's the best path in this environment to keep moving forward.

And that's what I share with my clients when I'm working with my clients.

If you're.

If you're out there pitching your idea to a new person, there needs to be a demonstration of an understanding of that person's world, their pain points.

I mean, that's number one in sales.

Right.

Like, I can understand this is probably where you're hitting friction around what you're currently doing.

Let's.

How we can possibly solve that?

But first, I really need to get into the pain.

What are you really feeling?

I imagine with when you're doing this, you probably have this happen.

And I've heard from other people that when you do this, and I helped one client who.

Right.

Talking about the sales experiences, the stories of things that I have helped somebody creating that relatability, that person starts to say, oh, yeah, you get it, you understand my world.

Maybe you don't completely, but you're able to demonstrate a willingness to understand.

And I took the initial step of learning a little bit about your pain points in world before just jumping into my sales pitch or whatever.

It's so interesting.

If I look back, I spent a lot of time doing account management.

And when I look at, like, all of the business that we did in account management, nine times out of 10, all the business was done in five minutes of the entire meeting.

I might have spent the entire afternoon with that client.

I might have just grabbed lunch with them.

But, like, let's call it 95% of the conversation was literally that.

Just general conversation.

How are you?

How are your kids?

Where.

How was the vacation you were on last week?

Tell me about Japan.

Right?

And then at the end, it's like, oh, yeah.

And by the way, we can do this.

Is that interesting?

Yep.

Absolutely.

I'll have you an RFP in that in the week that.

That was what it was all about.

It.

You didn't spend the whole time talking about your business and what you can do for people.

It was connect first, become a human.

And if there's an opportunity, it will.

Come up a hundred percent.

The beatings I made in my career was when I stopped trying to sell and I started to connect.

Like, I have no idea if I can help you.

I don't know if what I have is going to help you, but tell me about your world.

This could be an opportunity.

Maybe two years from now, we'll finally have an opportunity to do some business.

Totally.

But let's start, like, understanding each other now.

And I see every person not as a sales opportunity, but as an opportunity to, like, keep building my community in a way.

Yeah, well.

And that's it.

And yeah, we Just did a show inside.

Well, inside Catalyst Club.

We did a show on referrals.

We had a.

We had a referrals expert come in and teach referrals.

And basically they were making the case that, like, probably 90% of your business comes through referrals anyway.

So you might as well start paying attention to people, getting to know as many people as possible.

Because you're right.

Like, the opportunity might be two years down the line, but it's not what you know, it's who you know.

Yeah, it's not what you know, it's who you know.

It's so sad, but true.

I've.

I work with a lot of people who are trying to get a new job, and at this point, I just want to tell anybody out there, if you're looking for a New job, use ChatGPT as your interview coach.

You don't need to hire a coach to help you, like, get ready for the interview.

The chat can do that for you.

But that is the challenge.

So many.

They're not going to pick you up by your resume.

It's not what you know, it's who you know.

Like, develop the networking.

Start making those connections with the organizations where you want to work and the people that work there, and you'll get a job there eventually.

Since we're on ChatGPT and we were talking about storytelling, I want to spend a little bit of time with you on storytelling and the power of it.

You know, like I said, what I've always found is that the power of a good podcast, if I look at, like, all of the podcasts that I've done, the ones that are my favorite, and I think some of the ones that do the best are when you are able to relate it back to your own experience and your own story.

Right.

Like you said, if you want to just, like, learn some skills, hop on ChatGPT and say, I want to learn skills in this.

What are the top five things I need to learn?

It's going to list them out for you.

I don't think people are coming to a podcast or to a seminar or to anything like that to just have facts and figures given to them.

Right.

The power is in.

The power is in the story.

The power is in the story.

Right?

Like, the power is in.

We're having a great time.

People could care less about what we're talking about if they're just enjoying that.

We're having a good time right now.

Right.

This.

The power is in the story.

It is.

Talk to me about stories.

No one left.

No One has ever left a meeting saying, wow, that was an amazing slide.

Did you see that slide?

Oh, that bullet point.

That bullet point.

We're gonna talk about that bullet point for the rest of the life.

No, no.

They talk about the stories.

Stories are the way the brain works.

The brain does not just record data.

It actually records meaning.

And the meaning is created through pictures and emotions.

Right.

When there's a visual and when there's an emotional component, which stories inherently do, it connects with the brain the way it naturally works, and it becomes easily processed, easily remembered.

And that's what you want.

That's why metaphors move minds.

If you can connect your data point to a visual, you're going to have your listeners taking action on what you want to say.

It's the difference between me handing you a blueprint that is precise, exact, very refined, versus saying putting you in front of a picture of a house and saying, this is your future home.

Windows, you see the trees.

Right?

The difference between seeing the schematic versus seeing the actual thing is what will make a person jump to action.

So when you are teaching speaking clarity, walk me through how you teach the storytelling aspect of it.

Because I genuinely think if there's one thing that listeners can walk away with from this show, if we can help them to create and tell good stories, that will have the greatest impact of anything we could have talked about on this episode.

Fantastic.

First of all, I say this.

I never thought of myself as a storyteller.

I would look out there and be like that person.

They're a storyteller.

Did you see their TedX?

That was amazing.

This is.

Storytelling is a skill that anybody can learn.

And what I realized in my studies is that there is a structure and there are elements.

If you follow a structure and you include the elements, you're going to become the storyteller that other people point to and say, I want to be like that.

And the structure is simply this.

And I'm going to, like, flip the script a little bit on a lot of people because especially in sales and marketing and business development, people jump to the process before they get to the pain.

We need to talk about the pain point.

We need to create relevance around the why.

Why this story is important.

So start with.

I had a client who was really start with the pain point first, then get into the process about what you do, and then talk about the outcome.

That's your structure.

Talk about the pain, talk about the process, and then talk about the outcome.

It's a structure and elements, elements that you want to Include details, add credibility.

Right.

Generalities of.

Oh, it turns out really well.

Yeah.

Doesn't really?

Yeah.

What does that mean?

It's so subjective.

I'm not sure if I.

We want.

People want something measurable, that they can speak to a quote.

If you don't have one, if the.

If the results aren't finished now, you can actually still paint the picture of what kind of results you're anticipating.

But people need a definitive outcome.

So start with a pain, talk about the process and bullet points, and then give the outcome in a measurable term, and you're going to become a great storyteller.

What about your own story versus one you make up?

For instance, I always think when I look at my.

Kelly, you're just making up.

All right, everybody listen.

I heard it here first.

There's the grim story tales or there's your authentic experience.

Right?

We're either talking.

Talking about something real or are we talking about something that didn't happen.

I always find that, for instance, when I think what's made the business development podcast so popular was that I always try to share my own story when I'm teaching a lesson.

This is what happened.

This is what happened to me.

This is why I do it this way now.

Right?

But I find that when I speak from experience, not only is it a better story, it makes for a better show.

When you try to tell somebody else's story, you can't connect with it as authentically.

Or would you try to speak to, like, an idea?

You can't connect with it as authentically.

I think there's so.

I don't know what it is about being able to tell your story that makes it so powerful, but it just feels different.

There's nuance to your own story that you are going to exhibit in your delivery that nobody else can imitate.

Right.

When I'm talking about the story of my client who did this, I can't deliver the same emotion that she.

When she went through it.

So telling your own story is always going to be a more nuanced and more impactful situation.

But I want to challenge everybody out there and push back just a little bit on what you said.

Practice telling other people's stories, okay?

Because that is also the art of developing that.

That rhythm, that muscle to telling stories and stories can be adjusted.

The point.

What's the point of the story?

Right?

There needs to be a point of the story.

Unless you are in a conversational situation, social situation, then stories can just be whatever.

But if you're in a business situation, There needs to be a point to your story and you need to make that point explicit.

Telling other people's stories and then getting to an explicit point point is almost easier than telling your own story and getting to an explicit point.

Because as individual, I gathered 14 data points from that experience.

Where do I land?

What do I share with you?

But if I practice telling somebody else's story, when I do the pain, the process, I went through the outcome and then share the point of why I'm telling the story, their story, it becomes easier muscle memory to keep hitting an exact point because I am a little bit removed.

There's not that nuance of emotion then trying to find the right wording to make that point.

Does that make sense?

It does.

It does.

One of the other questions that I have then is that should there be a story to every point you are trying to make?

Let's say that your speech has two things or three things that you want people to walk away from.

Should there be a story for every point to help them remember that, or does that start to get a little bit convoluted?

Yes.

And if you don't mind me, every data point needs to be linked to a visual or emotional component.

So it could be a metaphor, an analogy, an example, or a story.

If you tell the same type of story over and over and over, it will become muddy.

People will not be able to tell where the, where to really show the emphasis is in your story.

So tell one story of this nature, give a metaphor, then give an example, and then end with a great analogy.

And you've, you've hit a home run right there.

You've spent some time talking about metaphors and analogies.

Can you dive a little bit deeper into them?

Metaphors and analogies are a way to turn a concept into something conceptual in a person's mind.

If I tell you how the phone works in great detail, it doesn't mean anything until I demonstrate or analogy with it.

Let me switch to this story.

I have a client who is the data person for a large health organization.

And every time she went into a meeting, she would explain all of the data behind what she was.

The reasoning, here's the logic, here's the insights, here's the data never connected.

She started using her Prius as a metaphor and she was able to say, well, you're trying to put gas in my Prius.

And that would stop people.

And then she would start making the connection of how that data, what they're trying to do, doesn't work with the way the System works, and they are finally able to understand why this doesn't work with this and how this needs to be done.

And they started listening.

And she went from director to VP to svp.

On her way up to chief data officer, he goes.

Because she started using that metaphor.

And people were able to understand her data because.

And I would offer this to anybody.

You have hobbies, you have passions.

I'm not sure what it is.

For me, it's redwoods and coffee.

I can talk about those two things for the ren.

For the end of the day, if I can use my passion or my hobby to describe my situation or the project and I become known for that aspect, people in the entire organization be like, oh, you talked to Salvatore.

You're talking.

You're trying to put a 4.4 grind on mine.

You know, it doesn't, like, get it.

You become.

You get a reputation, and your data becomes sticky and actionable.

Okay, okay.

No, that's okay.

I get it.

I get it.

Basically what you're doing is you're saying, I'm going to translate this complex idea into something that you can understand.

And if you have the ability to make that translation, it's basically a superpower.

That's basically what you're saying.

It is a superpower.

You become the.

The.

I want to say the dominant voice, but you become the clearest voice in the organization when you're able to connect it to something that everybody can relate to.

Here's a simple hack.

Everybody understands cooking and highway systems, transportation, right?

So you can always revert back to some sort of metaphor around cooking or some sort of metaphor around transportation.

Like you're trying to put gas in my Prius.

Or you need the recipe before you cook the meal.

But before you get the recipe, you've got to go to the grocery store.

And before you go to the grocery store, you have to have the list.

And that's what I'm offering right now.

I'm offering you the checklist that you want to do before you get onto a podcast and start trying those bars.

You need your recipe.

So basically, also what you're saying is make sure that your metaphors are something that are easily to understand by as many people as possible.

Because if you start to use RC airplanes, people aren't gonna get it.

Wait, the what?

The what?

What?

Remote?

No, I love it.

I love it.

This is a powerful episode.

People are gonna really love this one.

There's so much here.

And it's funny because I feel like we could talk about this for hours and still There would be so much to talk about.

Like, communication is just so complex, you know, You.

I was looking at your background before we kind of got on here, and you were an English teacher in the very early 2000s.

How much of that do you think, like, impacted your ability to communicate?

Well, because I don't know a whole lot of people with, like, professional English as part of their background, and teaching.

English was, like, the third grade and being like, oh, wait, I didn't know that that's what you call that.

I remember Sammy came up to me.

He goes, I taught English in Italy, and somebody came up and said, is it I am well or I am good?

And I'm like, do you want to be understood or do you want to be grammatically correct?

Because, nope, I am good or I am well, which is the correct verb.

People say I'm good, which is adjective.

That doesn't make sense.

I learned so much about English when I did teach that, but it wasn't necessarily that.

It was really a big pivot point in my communication because I had to start teaching people how to connect using language that they're not familiar with versus how to say it correctly.

Right.

I can give you the data correctly, but if I'm not connecting it with you, it's not going to make it important.

I actually love that you touched on that, because there.

There are some podcasters out there that will not be named who do a great job of speaking in big words.

Let's just call it.

They're the big word podcasters, right?

And they use these words.

I'm like, what the hell does that mean?

Like, I think I know what they're talking about because of the context of what they're saying, but I have literally never heard that word before, and it is probably right, and I'm probably just dumb.

No, you're not dumb.

There's.

There's a whole.

Where is your intelligence?

Is the question.

Right?

Did you spend a lot of time learning all that?

And what I find there is a lot of really smart people that forget they're not using.

They're using lingo when they're communicating.

My favorite new word is perseverate.

I perseverate about things all the time.

I perseverate too much and be really what is precipitate.

What are you saying?

The drain.

As you're thinking, like, overthinking.

They're like, oh, and then they love the word and they explain.

So if you are a person that used big words on a big word podcast, you want to Break those down each time you use them.

Not in a pedantic way, but in a way of like, hey, this is a new word that I learned and this is how I use it and bring people along with it.

Yeah.

Avoid the big words if you want to be understood and understood.

And I'm.

I wanted to say this earlier.

I'm going to say it now.

Don't let marketing write your speech speech, because you can't speak the same way as you read.

And marketing can write a good speech, but it's not going to always make it sound good.

So great.

Have marketing hit all the points that you want to hit, but then put it into your own voice.

I work with so many CEOs, and as they're delivering their first run through, I'm like, no, that's not your voice.

You got to change that.

That's not how.

Make it yourself.

Make it your own in there.

And part of that is watching out for the big words and lingo and things like that.

Love that, Love that.

Talk to me about preparing your speech.

Right.

Because like I said, I feel like I'm a bit more of a shoot from the hip, talking point kind of person.

Like, I. I don't necessarily write out things word for word when I'm planning a podcast.

I don't write out word for word.

Everything I'm going to say.

This is.

I typically.

Yeah, you know, Yeah, I have.

I have a roadmap.

I, like, know that in this episode I want to hit on these things, and these are the talking points for each main item that I want to hit on.

And I might have a line that I might want to hit, maybe for impact, like you said.

But at the same time, I find that I do a better show if I speak from the heart, if I speak from experience, and if I make a mistake, no problem, because I'll fix it.

But the.

We can edit, but the point is I can't do that live.

However, I still feel like I'm a better off the cuff speaker.

Yeah.

Great.

Does that work when giving speeches, in your opinion?

How do you teach people how to create a plan for their speech?

There, you're hitting a lot of different things.

I created frameworks based on my understanding of neuroscience and cognitive psychology.

I created frameworks for organizing your content so that it is easily understood and rememberable by your listeners.

So follow the frameworks.

There's five frameworks.

You can string them together to create a full presentation, but you can pull them out, you can move them around however you want to.

The key One is the impromptu speaking off the cuff.

And here, if you don't own the room, if you don't, if you're in somebody else's meeting and they call on you to speak off the cuff, they're looking for concision and clarity.

And anybody who's got that kind of spotlight and pressure is going to feel a bit of hesitation to find the right iteration to give that information.

You already have your top 10 talking points and have them down into sound bites.

You're way ahead of the game.

In my book, I offer the framework for impromptu and again, if you don't own the room already and you want to own the room with that impromptu edition that you're adding, you need to start with a headline that's as short as possible, add your insight, add a metaphor or some sort of picture, and then end with a point.

Right?

Those are four points that you can practice on a regular basis so you can speak off the cuff and still be seen as compelling and competent and can all of those things.

I think if you're in a boardroom, for instance, and you're asked to come up and speak to a topic, it's pretty likely you know a thing or two about what you've been asked to come up and speak to.

Hopefully, so what it so hopefully it's not like completely impromptu and you have no idea what it is you're going to be talking about about.

I think those situations are more rare.

I think it's more of a situation where you've been asked to give a presentation.

Especially when I'm talking with a lot of the leaders on the show or leaders in my community.

A lot of the times they've been asked to prepare for a week or two weeks for a presentation in to a group of people of one level or another so they have time to prepare.

Let's take that assumption in if they have time to prepare, what is in your mind, the best framework to go with?

Spend a little bit of time writing and remember that the law of premancy and recency dictate that the first things you say and the last things you say are going to be outweighed it.

They're going to have more impact.

So focus on those two points.

Make sure that your opening is understood.

You know how what you're going to say and how you're going to say it.

Make sure your ending is understood.

You know where you're going to land the plane and how you're going to land the plane.

People like threes.

If you have a wealth of Information, Put it into three buckets.

So you have an opening, you have three buckets, and then you have a closing in term.

That's the content.

In terms of delivery, what I offer is I'm going to just share my best tip.

And that is practice saying it in a different accent, in a different accent.

Because when you practice your well rehearsed speech in a different accent, it accesses a different part of your brain.

Interesting.

Fill in the gaps and it no longer becomes something that you have to memorize the script.

It becomes something that you start to embody.

You put so much energy focusing on doing the accent that you let go of the intensity of remembering the words and something starts to happen naturally.

So prepare your content.

Practice it in an accent.

And then you wanted to go, do.

You want to hear something funny?

I have a really good friend who gives his speeches in an accent.

Oh, that's fantastic.

What?

And I always thought I was like, what are you doing?

And you're just like, hey, that actually works better for memorization.

Wow, I had no idea.

Not just memorization.

It actually accesses more color and nuance in the points that you're trying to make.

And here's a. I was just yesterday, I was helping a team that's doing a conference this weekend, and I was working with five of the speakers, and each one of the speakers got up and we were doing rehearsals and doing the.

All of that.

And I had one of them just completely go into a performance mode and do a full Shakespearean presentation to break out of the quiet little box that he was in.

And he's like, this feels performative.

And I'm like, you know what?

There is a bit of performance to this.

Sure.

You need to get a little bit outside of your comfort zone to create comfort for the listeners.

Some.

I was gonna say, I think the best speeches I've ever been to felt like a performance if I had to, like, if I had to nail it down.

I think some of my favorite speakers, they're jumping around on stage, they're moving around, they're flailing their arms.

Like, it feels like you are a part of something, not just a conversation.

And if I could add, there's a, there's a point of fake it till you make it in there, because it's going to feel performative until it starts to integrate with your natural way of being.

And then all of a sudden it doesn't.

It's not quite as performative as it is authentic.

You can authentically present in a different, like, from a different part of you're leading from a part of you that you don't necessarily lead when you're out in the grocery store or in the dinner table, but you're leading from a part of you that does used to feel performative and now feels like an authentic presentation of you and yourself out to the audience.

Whatever it is.

Yes.

It still takes it into that like weird space for me though and maybe you can clear this up before we head into the close today.

I like I said my challenge was the beginning was the scripted part.

Once I got into the thing that I wanted to speak about, I knew it like the back of my hand.

I had my slides I was very able to present well, crush it.

But for me it is the performative part of it.

The like the preparing for the thing that doesn't feel natural that I struggle the most with.

It is that scripted intro.

It is that pre written introduction where I feel like I would have done better to have just still had my thing that I wanted to say but like done it from myself as opposed to, you know, a notes.

I'm gonna push a little bit on this.

Yes.

And first of all, I want you to start in a way that feels authentic and I want.

Yeah.

Challenge yourself to do something different every time you get up there because you're gonna learn from it.

The opening is always the highest pressure.

Right.

We're.

We're no longer receiving and interacting in a dynamic environment.

We're actually presenting and pushing information out there with the hope that it's received and sure.

That is why the you that me principle will help soothe that your go to might be a story.

Great.

Use that once.

Try a different one next time.

Yeah.

Make it a you than me.

Talk about the audience and what you know about the audience before getting into your the rest of your intro Again, people don't care who you are until they know why you're talking.

So talk, talk about them, what they're going through, what their hopes are and then talk about yourself and why you're.

Yeah.

And why you're sharing and you'll start to grease that opening.

I think the opening is the most tricky and critical and as an introvert, as a data driven person, I that's why I created these frameworks.

There's an opening framework and there are five things that people want.

And when you start talking, I won't go over it all right now, but my framework lays it out.

And once you get the muscle memory of hitting those five points when you start, whether you do it with a story or you start with a question or however you do it.

If you can hit those five points, you are going, you are off and rolling.

But the key thing that I want everybody to understand that's listening to this.

The reason why it is so difficult to have that opening feel strong is because you're no longer in the dynamic nature of getting and receiving feedback immediately.

You're taking a risk and putting out there this little baby saying, do you think my baby's ugly?

So you, you have to make sure that you are confident in the structure of the way you are communicating it.

And then you can get past the opening and full on.

And don't over rotate to reading everybody's facial expressions as unnecessarily like, oh, they're not getting this, they're not listening, right?

No, they might just be hungry.

Don't get too fed up on the immediate responses that you're getting from the opening.

But if you have your structure, you can go in and please try it differently every time you open.

Break the system.

No one gets hurt from words, right?

Sticks and stones, whatever.

Yeah, yeah, okay.

I love it, I love it.

And what you're saying ultimately is aim to become a better speaker every time you get a chance to do so.

Try something new, learn something different and just become more well rounded overall.

Exactly.

Get outside your comfort zone and find out what is.

What is already your well rehearsed thing that you can let go of and start doing something new to keep reaching bigger and bigger audiences.

Amazing.

Amazing.

Well, I want to take this opportunity now to lead into, you know, you do a few things, but you actually just released a book, mind you, at this point that they're hearing it, it's been out for like probably like 12 months.

So.

But as of this conversation a couple months old, talk to us a little bit about clear and compelling.

Clear and compelling is my way of compressing 20 years of communication coaching research into neuroscience and psychology, orgasmic behavior into one guide.

And it's not meant to be a cover to cover read.

It's more of a tool book that you can open up, find a strategy, try that strategy in your next presentation or meeting, see how it works and keep building upon it.

Does break down communication into how are you organizing your content, how are you delivering that content, how are you and what are the factors that are driving the way that you show up and project your presence in that place.

So you can use any one of those three pillars and you can find a strategy or technique, Try it out in your next meeting and then see.

How it goes amazing, amazing.

And it has become a bestseller.

What are the best places that people can get it at?

Go into any bookstore, go into Barnes and Noble, or go onto Amazon and you will find it there and let me know how it works.

I say this all the time.

People don't always take me up on it, but send me a short video of you speaking.

I'm happy to give you what I see as your gold and an opportunity that you might have in reaching a bigger audience.

Amazing.

I can't wait to read it.

I'm going to order it probably right after this conversation here.

Lead me into leadership communication, your business.

Obviously you do a lot of stuff through there.

You do thought leadership, public speaking, consulting.

Walk me through.

What is leadership communication?

We can't lead without communicating our vision.

Right?

So leadership communication are the core components to becoming the leader that you hope to be and sharing your vision and having the impact that you want in this world.

The idea is I oftentimes will work with a CEO or an executive as they're preparing for an all hands, a board presentation, going in front of Congress.

And once we develop that rapport, then I start working with their team.

We create within their team a shared narrative.

They begin using the same tools for elevating their communication in the team, and then we start deepening the speaker's bench for the organization.

So it's not just the CEO that's speaking.

You have two or three backup that are actually prepared to speak as well.

So those are the ways that I typically work as well, as I love coming in and doing keynotes or doing a workshop at a conference or, or even helping you put together an off site that includes a little bit of leadership communication in there.

Amazing.

And if, Salvatore, if people want to get a hold of you, what is the best way for them to do so?

Clear and compelling.

Playbook.

Com clearandcompellingplaybook.com when you go there, you'll find the resources that I talked about on the podcast and you can always find me on LinkedIn.

It's a great place.

We'll make sure that that is in the show.

Notes for the show.

What a pleasure.

It was so great speaking with you.

I. I have to give him a quick public apology.

I did have to kick this one down the line.

Our original interview was booked three days before my son Fox was born.

And so I was like, I'm in trouble.

I have to, I have to push this.

So thank you so much for graciously pushing this out a couple months, but it was worth the wait.

I love your levity.

I love your leadership.

I love the way you're driving the conversations and keep doing what you're doing.

It's fantastic.

Thank you so much.

Until next time, You've been listening to the Business Development Podcast and we will catch you on the flip side.

This has been the Business Development Podcast with Kelly Kennedy.

Kelly has 15 years in sales and business development experience within the Alberta oil and gas industry and founded his own business development firm in 2020.

His passion and his specialization is in customer relationship generation and business development.

The show is brought to you by Capital Business Development, your business development specialists.

For more, we invite you to the website at www.capitalbd.ca.

See you next time on the Business Development Podcast.