Why Legacy Matters More Than Career with Raphael Cervan

I see democracy being attacked, I see people suffering.

I see the environment being trashed, being destroyed.

And I've been.

And I'm making aircraft, okay?

They are very useful.

I'm the first one saying they are very useful.

I need to go to Brazil in an aircraft, et cetera.

But I have a lot of energy, okay?

I have a lot of passion.

I have the conscience.

I've been lucky to meet people who open my mind to help me understanding where we are going, we are doing.

And I have these skills.

I said, well, I need to do something with this.

See if I'm.

If all this opportunity, I don't do anything.

One day I will look at myself and say, yeah, you could have done better.

The great Mark Cuban once said, business happens over years and years.

Value is measured in the total upside of a business relationship, not by how much you squeezed out in any one deal.

We couldn't agree more.

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You'll get expert business development advice, tips and experiences and you'll hear interviews with business owners, CEOs and business development reps. You'll get actionable advice on how to.

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Let's do it.

Welcome to the Business Development Podcast.

And now your expert host, Kelly Kennedy.

Hello.

Welcome to episode 309 of the Business Development Podcast.

And for this very special episode, it is my pleasure to bring you Rafael Servan.

Rafael is the co founder and CEO of San Vios and his journey is anything but conventional.

Born in Brazil and now based in France, Rafael spent 17 years in the global aerospace industry as an aeronautical engineer, working on landmark programs like the Airbus A380 and later serving as chief engineer and new program manager for the A320 family.

Along the way, he led international teams across three continents and collaborated with some of the world's most demanding industrial partners, mastering systems thinking, precision and execution at the highest level.

Then he made a very rare move.

Driven by the question of what kind of world his children would inherit, Rafael walked away from a comfortable leadership role to build something that truly matters.

Today, through sanbios, he is redesigning how energy is produced, shared and owned, creating local, decentralized, renewable energy communities that generate economic value while strengthening social bonds and territorial resilience.

This is not sustainability as a slogan.

This is engineering discipline applied to impact.

This is what it looks like when technical excellence meets moral clarity and refuses to compromise.

Raphael, what an honor and privilege to finally have you on the show.

Hello, Kelly.

I'm very honored to be here.

And I know everyone says wow when they hear that, and actually, yeah, wow.

Thank you so much for this description.

I could not have done better myself.

It's.

It's really, really cool to have you on the show.

And I want to speak a little bit to our relationship because you have been an incredible, longtime listener of the show.

I believe at this point, we've been chatting back and forth for a couple of years.

Yeah.

And, you know, when we started talking and finally met, I, you know, I love to have listeners come on the show and maybe kind of share their journey a little bit with the BDP as well.

And it's pretty rare that I get somebody like you who I know has been with us for so long.

So I definitely want to spend a little bit of time there and hopefully how we were able to help you with San Vios.

But before we get into that today, I want to just introduce the listeners to you.

You've had an incredible career.

You've made an incredible impact, you know, around the globe.

And you're based in France, which is super cool.

We don't get a ton of people calling in from France, so that's the other side.

That's awesome.

Take me back to the beginning, Rafael.

You know, you grew up in Brazil.

Take me back to being a kid.

Were you always this, like, entrepreneurial, driven?

Not at all.

Actually, he was born in Brazil, and as almost every Brazilian boy, my dream was to be a soccer player.

Okay.

I played a few years, actually, in a team called Santos, which is the team from Pillay and from Neymar.

So it's a quite known team.

But, yeah, it was not my career path.

I was not good enough, at least not good enough for a Brazilian.

But I have a very regular, I would say, childhood in Brazil.

I grew up in a city close to the sea, so I was almost every time on the beach and taking and seizing the sun.

And this is a very, very beautiful region of Brazil with rainforest.

And I have always been very impressed by the rainforest in Brazil, which is so fantastic, so beautiful, so rich.

And, yeah, I was good in maths.

I've always wanted to see the world.

I've always wanted to get to know different cultures, different people.

And so I decided to be an engineer and aeronautical engineer.

It's the guy who is dreaming and traveling, etc.

And so that's how I end up as an aeronautical engineer.

But today I know that what really drive me, that path was the.

I really like to meet people, to Understand people and to share, get to know different people and creatures.

That this is something that I love.

And so this is.

This is how I end up as in this very international world, which is the aeronautical aerospace industry.

Take me into your time at Airbus, because I think that's super cool.

I love airplanes.

Like, if you don't know that about me, I love airplanes.

I got airplanes all over the place.

As a kid, one of my favorite things to do was to go to air shows with my dad.

And to this day, I still love going to them.

And I can't wait to take, you know, my littlest son, Jet.

I literally named my kid after an airplane.

So there you go.

His name is Jet.

Hey, you're more than a fun than I am.

Yeah, yeah.

So, yeah.

So I love aircraft.

I love aerospace.

You know, Airbus is such a leader in aircraft around the world, you know, some of the most technologically advanced aircraft in the world for civilian transport.

What was it like to work for Airbus?

Actually, it was a dream coming true because when I decided to be a Ronaldo engineer, I was like around 15 years old.

And so I started preparing myself to one day be able to go to France and work for Airbus.

So I started learning French because I don't come from a French family.

And that's why I decided to do those studies, which is not easy to do in Brazil, because at that time, we only had two schools that offered this diploma, so we needed to work hard together.

And I eventually did.

And so it was really fantastic because this is a.

Well, we are working for the world leader, right?

So these guys are the best.

They have been doing the best aircraft for 15 years, 50 years now, fantastic aircrafts like the Concorde, the A380, A320, et cetera.

And I have met a lot of wonderful people.

And what I really joined at Airbus is that you have people from everywhere working in there.

So I've met people from India, from Australia, from America, from South America, from Europe, et cetera.

And so this is kind of a very rich experience because you meet people that don't have the same background as you.

They don't have the main life that you have had, and they don't have the same culture at all.

So they bring you something that you don't have, and of course, you leave them something that they don't have.

And so for me, this is the most.

This is the richest thing you can have at Airbus.

It's not only technical good people, but it's also people from everywhere.

And I'm really convinced that the diversity is something that improves.

Improves.

The words are missing.

They improve the way teams work together and they boost the way you can create.

We're more creative, we are more open minded when you are in this kind of diversity environment.

So it was really fantastic.

And I have been very lucky because I've worked at almost every aircraft they used to manufacture for the A380, A330, A320, some military applications as well.

And I've been.

And I've spent 10 years in the design office, so 10 years doing really technical stuff.

So really getting into the details, understanding properly how everything works, how we integrate it.

And as you said, I was, I got the chance to work with them in the propulsion side.

So I've worked with teams like Pratt Whitney, General Electric, Rolls Royce, and so these guys are top leaders in the world.

So really very nice people, but also very, very skilled engineers.

So I've learned a lot in this, in this industry, man.

You know, I admire engineers around the world.

Like, it is absolutely incredible the stuff that you guys are able to do.

I look at a system like, like, like an A380, you know, a civilian transport jet or something like that, and just how many things have to go right for that thing to even work?

It absolutely blows my mind.

If you don't mind, I'd love to just pick your brain a little bit.

Just because I'm a nerd and I want to know.

We got both.

How do you integrate so many systems together in a way that just works?

Like, I look at just everything that has to go right.

For instance, for a turbine engine to actually function, that just one thing going wrong can blow the whole thing to pieces.

Yeah, that's not true.

That's not true.

Is it not true?

Okay, interesting.

Maybe that's just what I always thought.

Yeah.

We work actually, we work on our ways that if something happens, it cannot blow up an aircraft, okay?

That's how everything is designed.

So it's not only how we've designed for it to work, but how we designed for it to work.

As a probability of something that should not happen, won't happen in the entire life of aircraft if it is.

If the consequence, for instance, is something, that's the lose of the aircraft.

If there's one single failure that would lead your aircraft to crash, this cannot happen, okay?

So we have to have redundancy, so, et cetera, whatever, in order to make this not happen.

But to answer to our question, I think this, and this is the main lesson I bring from this experience to my entire life is that you have to be, you have to do a good work.

You need quality.

Okay.

You need to have a specification.

Things must be clear.

It's not only having a mission and a vision, you also need to have all the process that allow you to work with all these suppliers around the world and doing something that at the end we will work together and we work together in the safety level that nothing can happen if nothing bad can happen if something goes wrong.

Of course things can go wrong, and I've seen that.

But very often those things that when they go wrong, the system is designed so the safety of the flight is guaranteed.

Wow.

Wow.

How were you able to like forecast all of the probability of things that could go wrong in order to like plan for it?

It sounds like a really challenging job.

Very smart guys, they do that for as a living.

I mean, this is their main missions.

They need to understand how the systems work.

Yeah.

What are the failure modes that can happen?

And then they need to calculate what would be this, the consequences of the failure and what is the, how often it can happen.

I mean, what's the probability of this happening?

And then if you are not, if you don't, you don't have, if the frequency is too high or the consequences are too bad, then you need to do, to take a decision.

Decision can be a design change or can be just we put in place on maintenance or you put in place an alarm, etc.

Etc.

Yeah.

And then you design your system.

So the system is the aircraft is always safe.

Wow.

And this is the main mention of the chief engineer.

So the chief engineer is the guy that's taking the decisions, choosing design, etc.

But as chief engineer, and this is very strong at Airbus, Culture said you are the first one and you are the main one responsible for the safety of other people flying on Airbus aircraft.

And so this was for me the main, the most important mission on that job.

Wow.

Wow.

Well, you know, on behalf of everybody who's ever flown Airbus, thank you so much for, for the incredible hard work.

I don't hear of a lot of air Airbus challenges, so I think.

Yeah.

Congratulations.

Rafael, pat yourself on the back, man.

I think you, I, I think you may have protected a lot of people.

I hope so.

That's, that's, that was the job.

The job was main, the main mission of that job.

And hopefully, I mean, we have never had, we have had some difficulties, but we have reacted, reacted, especially engines.

Engines can be very tricky.

Yeah, yeah.

But that's part of the Job.

And so it's very important.

Aerospace, it's an industry where you cannot, you cannot drive in a company only through finance.

Okay.

It's a very technical industry.

And sometimes you need to hear the technical stuff and say, okay, this, the, the, the choices we are making, maybe they're good for the business, but they not, they might not be the best ones from a technical standpoint.

And that can have consequences.

And consequences in aeronautics can be very, very dramatic.

Yeah.

Like you have to be putting people first at the end of the day.

Every decision.

Exactly.

Wow.

For me, this is, this is true for every business.

But in aeronautics, this is very, very clear.

It should be true for every business.

I'm not sure that it is, but it should be.

I agree, but definitely in a situation where lives are truly at stake.

Yes.

Yeah, of course.

Yeah.

That's amazing, dude.

You know, bring me into, you know, we talked a lot about your time at Airbus, but bring me into that transition from Brazil to France because, like, I imagine that was a bit of a culture shock for you, actually.

Yeah, I mean, I've, I've always dreamed of being to, to Europe.

I mean, I'm from a European family.

Right.

Okay.

And I needed to go see what were the origins of my family, how they used to live, et cetera.

So my grandmothers, they came to Brazil from Italy, actually.

They were like refugees, that's what we would call them today.

One of them was three years old, that she didn't know her parents, and she only knew a kind of place where she grew up, where she was born, actually.

And my Spanish side of the family flew from the dictatorship in Spain.

And so I wanted to come and see all this.

You know, I want to feel what was for these people.

Imagine what, what was to move from a country to another one in the beginning of the 20th century without knowing everything, et cetera.

And so I started preparing myself, myself, actually.

So when I decided to come to France, actually I came as a student to do a master's degree.

Say, okay, I will spend one year in Spain, in France.

Let me see how it works.

And eventually I come back to a Brazil, whatever.

So it's been 18 years now.

Wow.

So everything worked very well.

I, I love this country.

People are very, very nice in France.

I think people are very open minded.

Then it can be really extra Brazilian for South American, more Latin guys, maybe colder in the beginning, but they are, they are very.

How can I say that?

They are genuine people.

Okay.

When they like you.

Okay.

It's not like just to say and So I, Yeah, I felt in love with French culture, with French language, with French dishes and cuisine.

You should try if you haven't.

Yeah, very good.

Very good things to eat, to eat here.

I love this country.

I love the culture, everything.

And I was.

I felt.

It felt at home since I arrived.

So, yeah, I made a lot of friends and I did my master.

Then I find my job, start working at Airbus.

Everything was nice.

And so that's how I've been here now for 18 years.

Of course, I've met my wife.

That helped.

That helps.

And now I have my family here, actually, so this is where I belong.

I feel more French than Brazilian today.

But, yeah, when you.

I was 25 years old and, yeah, it was kind of a joke because I come from Brazil.

It's a different culture in Brazil, actually.

I came from a family that has some.

Yeah, we don't come from the very popular side of the country.

I can say I'm a privileged one.

And so I have some.

Some things I have access in there that I don't have here.

Because the countries are different.

Right.

And so it was very.

It's a way of growing up.

I mean, I have left my.

My parents home at.

When I was 17.

This is already something nice, but moving from your country when you're 25.

I arrived in France, I have a bag.

That's all I had.

Wow.

So it's.

It.

It.

Yeah.

It's a way of opening your mind.

It's a way of seeing different things and growing.

I mean, I'd say growing.

So it was a fantastic journey for me.

I've had the pleasure of interviewing so many newcomers, specifically to Canada, not to France, but it never ceases to amaze me, you know, that people will pack up and just.

Just hop into the unknown.

I know with entrepreneurship we do that a little bit, but to me, moving countries feels like the ultimate jump, the ultimate jump into the unknown.

I've interviewed people, Rafael, who didn't even speak the language when they landed here.

And so not only do you have the language barrier, you have a cultural barrier.

You have.

What kind of job can you apply for without the communication.

Do your certifications even hold up in this new country?

Man?

It's just.

It never ceases to amaze me, the bravery, the bravery of people who immigrate to different countries and.

Yeah, right.

Right back at you, man.

Like, I can't imagine what that would be like.

Did it scare you?

No, not at all.

I mean, when I was 30 minutes from taking the aircraft, yes.

But eventually, when I land that I was there.

So I need to make things happen.

But I mean, I cannot compare to a lot of people because I made that choice from a very comfortable way.

I mean, I already used to speak French.

I mean, I had an engineering degree, I knew I would find a job, et cetera.

It's quite different from people that don't that move because they don't have a choice and that can be with children, etc.

Can be very, very, very, very scary.

Of course it's not the case for me because I knew I was.

I had one year to spend in France.

I had some money I have put in my place for to be able to do that.

So I was quite uncomfortable way of doing that.

And so when I arrived, actually I realized that school would be very easy to me because I was already an analytical engineer.

So I was taking a kind of master just to be here.

And so I decided to take one year to really get to know people and friends.

And so this was very much more personal cultural improvement or growthness or whatever than academical one.

And so I spent a very fantastic year.

My first year in France was really, really, really nice one.

And that helped because I went out, I met people, I met people everywhere.

I met a Canadian guy who's from Edmonton where I like.

Cool.

Hello to Logan.

Hello.

I don't know if you hear you, but Logan is a good friend.

He's back in Canada now.

Okay.

And so, yeah, so it was fantastic.

It's like, I don't know if you know the Erasmus problem in France.

No, it's kind of when you're a student, you.

You need to spend one year in a different country than yours and that's the ERA program.

So I take mine, I take my Erasmus here in France.

As a Brazilian arriving from France, so wonderful experience and it's like entrepreneurship.

I think you did the good, the good link because it's jumping to the unknown, but it's always a good surprise.

You have always something good in the path.

So even of course it was not easier all the time, but you always had some different experiences that bring you something that you would not have had if you had stayed where you were.

So the path is fantastic.

I think it's a very useful one.

And I've.

And I would really encourage people that are.

I kind of curious.

I mean, I don't know if sometimes we don't know what we want to do after school and before starting working and why not take one year of seizure and go see the world.

I think it's a very good way of getting to know yourself better.

And I know much more about myself since then because I moved and so I was obliged to open myself, I was obliged to adapt.

And.

And this is always very.

I think this is.

It has been very important on my, on my path to become an entrepreneur.

Amazing, Amazing.

You know, you have a very unique perspective, I think, as somebody who didn't necessarily grow up in France with regards to the culture difference.

Because I think sometimes like when people will ask me, can you define Canadian culture?

It's like, it's a little bit hard to define, I think because I grew up in.

In it, I know no other culture.

So in order to be able to like really put the pins on what's different is very hard.

But I think for someone like you, you know, I mean, I feel like I can ask that question.

What, what would you say defines French culture, French business culture?

I think you might be able to have two different perspectives and so on that level be able to better define what you noticed as a difference.

Would that be a fair statement?

I don't know, because that's.

That's all I know.

Because.

But what I can tell you, there's this expression in French that we say, so take a step back.

It is true and it's true for both sides.

I mean, I understand much better Brazil today, living in France and seeing from France.

And I can see much better some things as well in France, coming from Brazil and sometimes say, okay guys, you are right, you should never give up on that.

Because in Brazil we did.

And I know how it end up.

For instance.

Yeah, maybe you can say that, but I'm not sure.

I mean, France, especially France, it's a very rich country.

You have a.

It's a small country, but with a lot of different cultures.

And I can say I know very well the future of the southwest of France, but I cannot tell you I know the future of northeast of France.

I don't know.

Yeah, because it's different and I don't think any French can.

Okay, so how rich the difference of culture are in this country.

So this is also.

This has been also something that was surprised for me because from Brazil it's not that.

It's not that way.

Maybe in Canada it's the same because they have things, the colonization etc.

So one only future that has been imposed to a big country in France they had the time to develop with small ones.

And so sometimes I ride for 100km and you have different wine, you have different food, you have different cheese.

Even different language.

Okay.

And different architecture and different history.

And so that's fantastically.

Actually you can stay in a country and travel for 10 years and they're still discovering new things.

That's fantastic.

Wow.

Wow.

Yeah.

Canada is maybe very similar to that.

Although I would say Canada is kind of split in two if I want to like, say what is.

I know there's a lot of Canadians who would maybe disagree with me on this, but I would argue that Western Canada and eastern Canada operate quite differently.

And I have spent time in both.

I, I've.

I've spent time in Halifax.

Like, eastern Canada is absolutely beautiful, but they operate at a different pace than western Canada does.

But it's a huge country.

Like we're talking like, I think 5,000 or 6,000 kilometers coast to coast.

Like it is a long drive, I can tell you.

It's days and days of driving to go from one side to another.

But it is interesting because, you know, right smack dab, sort of in the middle of Canada towards the east is Quebec.

Right.

Which is a pretty much a fully French speaking, you could almost say independent country.

It's a province, but it's really its own little world.

They even have like their own rules and stuff.

Like they've really kind of negotiated their own space.

But yeah, like, if you go from like let's call it Manitoba west to British Columbia, I think most of the people are very similar, speak the similar language, understand the similar terms.

But it's like once you get the eastern Canada, it's a whole different world.

And actually if you get all the way to Newfoundland, I love the Newfie accent, but they speak differently than we do.

Like very differently.

It's a very, like, if they, if they don't slow down, I don't get it.

Okay.

So, yeah, totally understand what you mean about how you can have different things.

In a short, I think maybe in France it's even, it's even a shorter distance before you start to experience the difference in culture.

Yeah.

Coming from Brazil, I mean, I remember I could make 1000km.

Everything was the same, same names, the same, the same environment, et cetera.

In France, everything changed.

As I said, you're 100 km, you are in mountains or in the sea, or you have this wine world, sorry, etc.

So, yeah, it was very surprised to see so much diversity again on such a small country.

And also in terms of culture, that's always something that has really interest me from a business standpoint.

What I can tell you is that I'm not in Paris, Okay.

I'm speaking from Toulouse, south of France.

And Paris is a different world.

Okay.

You have Paris and have the rest in France.

In Paris, everything goes much quicker, much faster.

So much more money, much more opportunities, et cetera.

So most of the business are very often based in Paris.

Okay.

I would say the.

Yeah, the environment is much more profitable.

I'd say much more.

It's easier to succeeding there.

But I'm not there.

I don't want to be there.

I want to make somehow that everyone in this country, every country can take benefit of the economical growth and progress of humanity.

So there's a choice to not be there.

But it's true that in France it's much easier, it's much more.

I don't know how it works in Canada.

This is something that has also had also.

Yeah.

In the beginning, I was surprised to see that it's so centralized in France.

Paris is, I mean, is so big and important city in the world that I think they get all the light in France and it's much more complicated somewhere else.

But yeah, we can also do better good things in the country side of France, if I can say country.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And it's amazing, you know, I mean, even for Canada, how much Toronto gets the light, Vancouver gets the light.

The cities of Edmonton and Calgary.

Right.

You know, Calgary, the greatest outdoor shore on earth.

But the reality is most of Canada is country just like you.

Most of Canada is small towns and.

And very small cities and countryside as far as you can see.

Like out where I live in, you know, Spruce Grove, Stony Plain area, you're out of town in two minutes in any direction you go.

And you could drive for hours through the country in either direction.

And then obviously we have the mountains about three hours in either direction.

That's nice.

Yeah, it's beautiful.

It.

We don't get to them enough.

I think that's maybe the sad part about.

About being Albertan is I think we get tied up in our work a lot and then trying to get away.

You might see the mountains a couple times a year if you're lucky.

But it's crazy because literally at any given day, you could drive three hours and spend the day in nature, like true nature.

Yeah.

And we should do this more often.

Yeah, probably should.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But, you know, one of the things I wanted to ask you was you obviously came across my show, so, you know, our first kind of introduction was, hey, Kelly, I. I found your show and I'm really enjoying it.

Talk to me.

How did you come across Finding the bdp.

Okay, that's a very good question because it allows me to make the link between the time as I moved from Airbus to become an entrepreneur.

So I quit airbus end of 2023.

Okay.

I have been working on some projects for a while during the night, when I was not working, etc.

And then I had a good idea of what I wanted to do and what to market what I thought market needed.

And then I started an incubation in incubator in Toulouse and they told me now you need to go see the market and you need to go discuss with people and see if your value proposal is the good one.

How do you do that?

Okay, you need to call people and meet people, et cetera.

And remember I'm a technical guy, I'm an engineering guy, I'm not a commercial guy.

I have never done that before.

And so I start trying.

It didn't work.

A lot of people refused to see me.

It was not easy because you come from aeronautics, are talking to me about communities, what, whatever.

I don't see the link.

So this guy is lost.

I don't want to discuss with him.

And so I started say, doing what I've always done.

Well, I need to learn.

So I look at Internet and well, I need to, to learn about business development.

And so I was looking for, for material and eventually I had to do so three hours of road alone.

I said, well, I look for a podcast and find yours.

And so I give it a try because I always wanted to as well.

I wanted to keep my English.

I used to work in English and since I left Airbus, it was no longer the case.

Said I need to.

I want something in English, I want something different and I want something not from France.

I want to see something different.

And I came across with your show.

I heard the first episode I hold the entire world trip.

Your episodes I like.

I loved of course, what you share.

It's very, it's a lot of value.

It was really interesting.

You have very practical, practical tips.

Like I didn't know a CRM exist.

So what CRM, how you use it, how you contact the guys, you need to have a packet, et cetera, et cetera.

But also very step back thinking, if I can say like that, what's your vision?

What's how you.

What's the idea once you sell.

And so I just listen a lot of them.

I really like your English.

It's easy to understand.

It's really clear the way you speak.

So it was really easy to understand.

So I came out No, I need to write to this guy.

He's just fantastic.

He's doing all this for free.

It's fantastic.

So that's what I did.

So that's when I wrote to you and I've been listening to your shows a lot.

I haven't listened to the all 308 yet, but most of them, yeah, I have listened to them and thank you.

I've told you a couple of times at least now I do it publicly.

Thank you.

Thank you very much.

Because it's very kind.

I mean, it's not the good word, kind, but you are giving a lot to people and I'm sure that you contributed a lot to my personal path with some views because I started putting place what you were saying and it started working.

And so give me some confidence.

And today I can sell almost everything.

I can sell everything that I believe on.

That's a good.

That's for me, that's enough.

And so it's kind of you, because of you, it's thanks to you and to your show.

And so, yeah, for me today, it's a pleasure to be here because it's an honor.

And the guy has been teaching me everything.

Now he's asking me question.

Yeah.

Thank you so much.

So cool.

It's so cool.

And I value our relationship deeply, Raphael.

I've enjoyed every conversation we've had, every perspective difference we've been able to kind of chat about.

I just think it's so neat to be able to speak to somebody in France, from Canada, and really have so much in common with them.

You know, like there's.

We're on a lot of the same journeys together, which is really interesting about entrepreneurship.

I think it really opened my eyes, this show, to how much we are all the same, no matter where we are in the world, as business owners, as entrepreneurs, as leaders, we're all facing the same challenges.

It surprised me, really, because I don't think, I thought that going into the show I thought, you know, business has to be different in France, business has to be different in Germany.

It's got to be different in uae.

And it's just not.

It's just not.

People are people everywhere around the world.

And dude, I would have been happy to have had somebody in Calgary listen to me when I started this show 300 kilometers down the road to have people in France, in Germany, in Europe, in Africa, in uae, around the world, it just blows my mind to this day.

So thank you, like from the bottom of my heart.

Thank you.

I thank you.

And I think that's what I liked a lot on the way you present your role of a business developer.

For me, it was really this commercial guy who wants to sell you everything, take all your money and whatever, and he brings me this view that actually this is a very human role.

I mean, you are trying to solve a problem for someone that.

I can do that.

I'm engineer.

I can do that.

I can't sell anything useless to anyone.

I can do that.

I will never do that, but I can sell something that will really improve the life of someone.

And that's what you teach me with your show.

And that opened completely my mind, because I say, okay, now I can do that.

That's.

I can do.

And this is because I have a different view of the.

Of what's a business developer.

And this is thanks to you, really.

And so it was for me, yeah.

At that moment, say I can be entrepreneur.

Yeah.

Okay.

It had been difficult.

I think everybody knows how difficult it can be, but I was still am.

I am.

Can I do that?

Really?

Can I really do that without hurting my.

My own deepest values?

Yeah, I can.

Because.

Because Kelly told me that actually all you are doing is proposing someone to solve his issues or her issues.

Of course.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, yeah.

Thank you so much for.

For.

For everything you.

You have shared with us all these years.

Oh, it's my pleasure, man.

It's my pleasure.

I set out to change business development, and it's conversations like this that show me that I actually, I'm slowly accomplishing that goal.

I. I still look back to being 23 years old and, you know, coming out of my boss's office after he asked me, kelly, would you do business development?

And literally just going back to my computer and Googling it.

Raphael.

Because nobody had ever told me about it.

Nobody ever taught me anything.

And I found almost no information on it on the Internet.

And I just remember being like, how is it possible that there's this very important position in nearly every company and nobody.

There's no materials for it?

Yeah.

It just blew my mind.

I understand it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But, yeah, it's.

It's cool.

It's cool.

I think.

I think I set out to make an impact, and like I said, it's conversations like this.

They show me we.

We are making an impact.

I want to take that now and just thank you.

Thank you for that.

And I want to lead that into your jump because, dude, like, you had an incredible career at Airbus.

You're changing the world, you're saving lives, you're creating amazing things.

And you chose to be an entrepreneur man.

Like, walk me through that.

Because you had to have been doing pretty darn good.

Walk me through the decision to make the jump to entrepreneurship.

It couldn't have been an easy one.

Actually, yeah, it was an easy one because I would explain you why.

The moment I decided to do it, it was easy, but it took me years and years to arrive at that moment.

Today, I know myself much better than I used to know when I was 20 years old.

And so, as I said in the beginning, well, what really drives me is making the.

Is make something better than my.

Of my time.

Okay.

When I meet someone, what I would like to know at the end of the time we spend together, that you have learned something, I have learned something.

You have something better than you, I have something better than me.

And so it's like, I like.

I really like winning, winning situations.

And I know that's how you see business.

And that's also one thing that has pleased me on your.

On your approach.

And so, yeah, I was doing.

I was doing great.

I have this great job.

I was traveling all around the world doing fantastic aircraft, something that I have always dreamed on, but it was not enough anymore, okay?

Meanwhile, I become a father.

You are a father.

You know how everything changed?

Everything changes, children, everything changes.

And I've always been in love with.

To this planet.

I just love this planet.

I love the sea, I love the oceans, I love the mountains, I love the forests, et cetera.

And so I see everything around going nuts, okay?

If I can use this term.

I see democracy being attacked, I see people suffering.

I see the environment being.

Being trashed, being destroyed.

And I've been.

And I'm making aircraft, okay?

They are very useful.

I'm the first one saying they are very useful.

I need to go to Brazil in an aircraft, et cetera.

But I have, I have a lot of energy, okay?

I have a lot of passion.

I have the conscience.

I. I've been lucky to.

To meet people who open my minds to help me understanding where we are going, what we are doing.

And I have these skills.

I said, well, I need to do something with this.

See if I'm.

If, if all this opportunity, I don't do anything.

One day I will look at myself and saying, yeah, you could have done better, okay?

And I'm not driven by money, by success, by etc.

I want people to feel better than they used to be before they met me, okay?

And so I start saying, what.

How.

How could I help meta this word?

How could.

How could I do better.

So I started doing, trying to do better to myself.

Okay.

So understanding what drives me really, what's, really, what can I, what can I bring to the world?

What could be my contribution?

What, what I'm good at?

And so everything was going on in my mind at the same time, et cetera, and said, okay, well, changing jobs will not happen because I, I mean, I go to whatever company that this huge company, they will impose the way of their values, their, their vision, et cetera.

So if I want to do something different, I need to create it on my own.

I won't be happy anywhere except if it's really fitting my values and my vision.

And so I said, okay, I need to create a company, so how will we do that?

And so I went back to school, I spent one year doing a master's degree in entrepreneurship, doing my career, TBAs, etc.

And then Covid came and Covid make a lot of people.

I think I've heard a lot of histories on your show.

Yeah, it's amazing.

It's amazing how many people started businesses in Covid.

Yeah, I didn't start at Covid because I was not ready.

I said, that's a pitch.

I'm not ready.

So I will be ready for the next opportunity.

And next opportunity happened two years before, after.

And so when the opportunity came, I jumped, as you said once, I just, actually, I didn't jump.

I just put, put to the deck on fire.

So I jumped to the boat, spurring the boat.

Yeah.

And my main, I would say that the main inspiration was my wife.

My wife, she's, she's an expert in, in chemicals, okay.

And she used to work, she used to work for 10 years for the chemical industry and allowing.

Helping them to put into the market some, some products, okay?

And these products can be dangerous, okay?

And she shift and she moved from this to NGO that today fights against chemical pollution.

Oh, wow.

Earning a third of she needs.

She used to make before.

And she was really an inspiration.

I said, okay, this is an example.

She's doing all her best to make this word better, even if that means that short term that she won't make enough money.

But one day, I don't know, in 20, 30, 50 years, she will be able to look at the eyes of her children and say, I did what I could, okay?

And for me, that's the most important thing in the world is that my children look at me and say, okay, he tried, he did whatever he could and we are not ashamed of him, we are proud of him.

That's.

For me, that's what's the most important thing.

So that's why I jumped.

Yeah.

When you put all this together, you say, yeah, it's an easy one, actually.

Choice to make.

Yeah.

It's pretty hard to look at your kids and tell them you did nothing, isn't it?

Yeah, I agree.

I agree.

Can be.

I had.

I had a moment earlier this week where I had a little bit of a meltdown.

We were watching.

We were watching like.

It's called One Life.

I don't know if you've seen it yet, but it's.

It's a Netflix movie.

It's Anthony Hopkins.

It takes place during the Holocaust, and it's quite.

And it's quite horrible.

And obviously there's a point in that movie where there are parents saying goodbye to their children.

They're putting them on a train, they're sending them out to England at the time, actually trying to get them out of harm's way.

And I remember just thinking, like, I can't like you.

I mean, it's something that as a dad now, I can connect with.

I could never connect with before.

So this is why I'm saying, like, becoming a father is a big deal in the way that you can relate to the world, because I think before you can understand how horrible that is, but you can't feel how horrible when you become a dad.

My God, can you feel it?

It's no longer a mind anymore, this.

Kind of body thing.

Right.

And.

Yeah, so I know exactly what you mean.

It's on your guts, actually.

You can.

Yeah, I understand.

Property changes you completely.

It changes everything.

I mean, it changes everything when you become a part of a parent.

Yeah.

And so, yeah, when.

I mean, today I watch.

I work much more than I used to work, but I'm more present as well because I'm very often at home.

And yeah, my children, they are very proud of what I do.

Yeah.

When they explain here in Toulouse, most of people say my.

My parents do aircraft.

Yeah, they.

They say something different.

And that's very.

Yeah.

And they.

I.

And.

And for me as well, I come.

I don't know how it was in Canada, but in Brazil in the 80s, in the 90s, when you're a kid actually, you must do all your best in school, get a job and get rich.

Because my.

The parents and the generations before, they struggled.

Okay.

So that's what I learned.

So that's what I did in the beginning of my.

My wife.

Right.

My life and my children, they are more lucky.

I mean, they are better situation in France today than my parents were in Brazil 50 years ago.

And I didn't want them to.

To learn that.

Yeah, your life is get a job and make money and that's it.

Yeah.

No, your life is do whatever you want.

Your life is to be happy.

And if you can make people happier, and that's what I try to do today, simply give them, okay, guys, do whatever you want as well.

As long as it's better for you and it's better for the world.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I. I'm not sure that I truly understood legacy until a few years ago.

And I realized that it's not just about doing something you like or doing the thing you're good at or.

I think at the end of the day, every single one of us wants to leave a positive legacy behind us.

Right.

I think for many of us, that is our kids, right?

Like, our kids are our true.

The greatest legacy that we leave, period, no matter what we do.

But ultimately, I want my work to matter.

Right?

And I know you do too.

And I think so much of entrepreneurship is about doing something that matters.

I completely agree with you.

I mean, we spend so much time, so much energy, and try to do what we do is that your only motivation cannot be only the money you make at the end of that road.

And as I very often say to people, ask me, how was it?

Was it difficult?

Would we suggest me to start a business, et cetera, or tell them that, I don't know, I don't know, it's still on the road.

I don't know what will happen at the end, but actually, I almost don't care because the road is so.

It's so.

There's so much opportunities on this road that whatever happens in the end, I think it's already beneficial.

You know what I mean?

At least I know that.

I know myself much better than I used to do before.

So that's something that already.

That's very advanced as a person.

And so that's what I say.

Entrepreneurship, yeah, It's a road.

It's the most important one.

And let's see what happens at the end.

To me, the greatest gift of entrepreneurship is that for the first time in your life, I think you have, like, 100% reliance on yourself.

I don't think before being an entrepreneur that I ever truly.

I don't know.

I don't know whether it's like, truly believed or, like, thought I could look after myself 100%.

Like, I think as an employee, it's like, you know, they they're gonna figure it out, right?

They're gonna keep this business going.

I just gotta show up and do my job.

That's my.

That's not my problem.

It's Friday night.

But I think taking that leap into entrepreneurship and for truly the first time in your life, saying, I am responsible for everything, that's the greatest gift.

That's the greatest gift.

Because for the first time in your life, it actually shows you you can.

You absolutely can.

And it's the most frightening one as well.

Yes.

And the most frightening one as well.

Agreed, agreed.

But I do agree with you.

This is the main gift.

And.

Yeah, it's.

That's.

Yeah.

And you need to do it.

It's like become a father, you know?

Yeah.

You can imagine what is.

But you don't know until you become one.

You don't know until you know.

Yeah.

I love it.

Rafael.

Okay, bring me into sunbios.

What are you doing?

What is it?

Let's tell the world.

Okay, well, sunbios, actually.

So it's a personal story.

I wanted, as you understand, I wanted to do some impact.

So I did not create a company and then try to see how it could make some impact.

I wanted to create impact, so I created a company to do that.

Okay.

And this is some views.

So doing my thinking, investigations or whatever we call it, trying to understand how I could be useful.

I said, okay, there are a few topics I would love to work on.

Energy is one of them.

And energy is very close to what I used to do at Airbus.

I mean, I was doing aircraft, but you understand complicated systems, the systems design, system operation, etc.

And so I said, okay, I do something energy now.

But I cannot be just one guy putting solar panels in a roof.

That would be not enough for me.

I really need challenging things.

I'm not saying it's not complicated.

I'm saying just I want to create something different, something new.

And so I came up with this model.

Okay?

The European Union has created a directive saying that people now can organize themselves, they can produce their own electricity, share among them however they want, whatever are their rules, they are free to decide.

And that's fantastic.

Why?

Because energy is the key of civilization.

Okay?

And today, energy is still owned by a few, very few people, roughly, the big oil companies.

So they own the energy.

So they have a lot of power.

And so they have a lot of.

They can do whatever they want, okay?

And so.

And when you put in place a kind of this decentralized system, actually you give power back to citizens, to everyone.

To you and I.

And so, okay, I love this concept.

So I started working with them.

I did a master's degree on the economical models of these companies, of this, sorry, this communities, and a lot of different business models, but none of them are really repeatable.

They cannot be scale.

I put into scale.

They are not scalable.

And so it depends on very a few people having a lot of energy and make everything happen.

I said, that's a pity, because this is a fantastic model.

I want it everywhere.

And so this is symbios.

So because I created symbios so we can industrialize.

That's the word, local communities, local energy communities.

So everyone can create one or join one, whatever he or she is in France, even the countryside, and not only the big cities.

So this means that it's very complicated to put something in place when it's collective.

So we have all these government aspects, so the legal aspects, etc.

Then you also need to be able to calculate how you share the energy.

Okay, you have two kilo hours, how we spread among people, what are the rules for that?

So you have all this technical engineering stuff, so this loyal stuff.

And then you also have up a commercial, okay, you need to go see your neighbors and tell them about this project, how you sell energy, et cetera, et cetera.

And so very often people don't have all these skills.

And so the projects, they remain small or they remain.

Or they are created among with people that like each other.

But it does happen.

I mean, it's like.

How can I say that?

Like a tinder, you know, you cannot match with anyone.

You have to find the good people.

So that's right, yeah.

If you want to create a community together, you and I, and say, okay, Kelly, I have a lot of energy, I will sell to you, but I only have energy at 2 o' clock.

And then I am.

But you at 2 o' clock are in the office, you cannot take that energy, so it doesn't work properly.

So we have all this complexity that we need to solve.

And also you have the financial aspects.

Because meanwhile French government has decreased every politics they used to put in place to help green energy to develop.

And so it becomes more and more difficult to raise money to found these projects.

And so financing is also a pain point today.

And so we decided to, okay, we are going to be industrious.

We are doing bjrbus of local communities.

We will integrate everything we need to integrate.

We are not lawyer, okay, but we have one.

We are engineers, okay?

But we are not commercial et cetera.

We will integrate all these skills into only one entity.

And this will be the only one entity that we will discuss with people that want to create or integrate a community.

So it's much easier than just telling no, now you're going to see the lawyer, now you're going to the engineer, et cetera.

And in order to really scale the solution, we also integrated the financing aspects.

So we raise money with people, with banks that want to create, to invest not only on green assets, but also in social assets.

I can tell them more about why social assets and all this together, we are capable of creating communities everywhere.

And as we do this every week, we do much better than people would have done themselves.

So we are cheaper, quicker, and so it helps us reducing costs and so really industrializing the model.

Wow.

Wow.

Okay.

Yeah, I love that.

I love that.

I.

For instance, in Alberta, where I'm at right now, actually, our energy isn't that expensive.

And I think that's what actually surprised me was that I see all my neighbors and.

And right now, if you're putting solar panels and stuff on your roof, you have to jack into the already existing grid.

So the thing that's kind of funny about that is this the most expensive thing we pay for is actually the distribution and fees.

The distribution and fees to get the energy to my house.

The energy itself is a fraction.

And it drives me crazy, Rafael.

It drives me nuts because the energy use of our house is about one third or less of the total cost of our energy bills.

The other two thirds are completely out of my control, and it's simply the distribution and fees.

The system.

Yeah.

And it's insane, man.

It's insane.

In Canada right now, I can have like a $600 bill for energy, yet my usage was only 100 to $150 of that bill.

Isn't that crazy?

Yeah, that.

That shows that the.

The importance of the grid.

Okay.

In France, it's the other way around.

It's one third of the price is the grid and the fees, et cetera.

And 202/3 is the energy itself.

Okay, okay.

But it's really important because I don't know what's this, how it was done in Canada, but in France, we have this very centralized grid.

And so the grid was designed for very big, few big nuclear power plants.

Okay.

And then you arrive with decentralized solution.

And so the grid is not designed to that.

And so we need to.

We need to invest in the grid.

So this means that we need to increase the fees, et cetera, in Order to be able to modernize the grid.

But our solution, that's what interesting because our solution use the public grid.

We are not the electrons, they are still injected to the grid as they would have been.

It's just like a virtual sharing of the energy that we do.

But this allows people to understand how the grid works.

Okay, okay, so it comes from the grid, so I have this fee, etc.

So people get conscious how energy works.

And so not only they have the power to produce, to decide how they share, but they understand much more how everything works, why we have this network, why it's important to have this grid working.

And so this decentralized solution, I'm not saying it should replace the centralized, the nuclear powered based grid, but they are complementary and they can help each other.

Okay.

Because when you are self consuming, okay, you pay much more attention to what's going on.

You have this application, your cell phone, you say, okay, I have a lot of sun, I have a lot of production, so I will do something right now.

Or you don't have enough sun, you want to do something right now.

So actually you help the grid, the national grid, by knowing what's going on, by having this conscience, having the information.

And when you are in collective self consumption projects like the one we develop, we are much more people, more conscious of everything's going on.

So we have this.

They become teaching or I don't know how to do the precise word we should say of how the grid works and how we should all support it and help it so we don't have blackouts or whatever due to the differences in demand and offer.

Man, we had, we had an emergency alert last December, not this one, last December.

And basically it was kind of saying like shut off everything because we're about to peak the grid.

And I was like, we had a new, like we had like a.

Was it.

Yeah, we had a fairly new baby.

Like we, we'd relatively just moved.

We had a new baby.

And I'm just thinking like, oh my gosh, like we can't, we can't lose our heat and our power here in the middle of winter.

Yeah, it's crazy.

It's crazy and it's scary and I think a lot of people don't quite understand how the system works, but from what I understand, and, and please correct me if I'm wrong, is that storing energy is very difficult.

And so like you kind of said, it's like the power is there when the plant is on and if the plant goes down, it's not like there's a bunch of batteries to pull the electricity from.

It's like when the plant goes down, you lose power.

Exactly.

And today this is, for me, this is today the main, the main difficult to, to make the energetic transition.

The challenge with the green energies, wind or sun, is that you cannot control them.

Okay.

You produce when you have a, when you have window, you produce when you have sun or when you have water, whatever.

It's not like a carbon or a fuel based power plant that you, you can control easily.

And so yeah, you need to either adjust your demand or your offer.

Okay.

So it's complicated to adjust your offer.

So the very first step we must do is to, is to adapt our demand.

So people must know how everything works.

People should have enough information so they can, so they can make the good decisions.

And it's very complicated when the production is coming from whatever power plant.

Now for north of France, it's much easier when it's coming from your, literally from your neighbor.

Okay, so we just look at the wind.

Okay.

There's some, I go to the application.

I have production, I have power.

Yeah.

So I can, I can charge my car.

Okay.

Or the other way around.

I know tomorrow it's going to, it's going to be rainy and I have a surplus of production right now.

So I will charge my car right now.

So this is the very first step that we can take to help the ecological transition.

And so the green energy deployment is being capable of adapting our demand.

And so this is kind of easy to do.

Then of course we need some storage equipment like batteries or whatever in order to really take this step.

But this first one is almost for free.

Right.

And the second benefit of doing these communities is that when you, when you are more, when you take care of, I mean when you, you have the information how, how, how much you are producing, how much you're consuming and, and you're tracking everything.

Actually you get to know much better how, how you consume actually how much it, it costs to, to one night or whatever, or your PlayStation or whatever you like.

And so actually you are much more sober because you take care, you make some.

Okay, I don't need to consume all of this right now because actually I can do it later.

And later you have more energy and actually you end up consuming less energy.

And so this is also another way of helping the grid and this is also another way of helping the ecological transition is to consume less energy.

And the final one, if you don't mind, with this business model that allow everyone to create their own communities and to share the benefits so you have more green energy that's been producing and so you can start finally replacing fossil fuels by electricity.

I have an example 300 people sitting in the north of France.

So the mayor decided that he would create a community, a local community in his home installed a cup of a little bit more than a couple, but some of his solar panels.

And he decided to share the electricity among his buildings.

So he made some savings for the town and then he had some surplus.

He decided to install some electro vehicles, chargers and give the electricity free to people in the town.

So the people now they have access to this free electricity, but they are aware of how much that costs and what are the consequences.

So they didn't start consuming more energy, but they started replacing old cars by new electrical cars with electricity.

They started installing themselves solar panels because the structure that we created in there allow people to share electricity among them.

So, okay, you don't use all your energy because you are in your office or the entire week, but at least you can sell them to your neighbors, just close door.

And so now they are very.

So not only sorry, they have this green energy and they have electrified their economy, but they discuss, they see each other much more, so they do some parties, et cetera.

So it became a kind of way of meeting and gathering.

And so not only we have this ecological and economical assets, but also social.

And I think that's very important.

And this is an association.

So people decide how they share energy, they decide what's the price, they decide on how they share it.

So it's democracy.

And by the time we are leaving, I don't think that's not to.

That's enough.

So yeah, that's why I wanted to industrialize this model because I see a lot of benefits that could bring to the economy.

Okay, okay.

One of the things that I'm just questioning a little bit is does this operate separate from the already existing grid then?

Or do you tie it into the existing grid?

No, the objective is not to be in outer city.

The objective is not to be closed between people, is to open.

So the objective is to see, hi, hello guys, see what we're doing.

You are free to come.

And actually in France you are not allowed to abstract yourself from the grid.

Okay.

So the objective is not to say we have this community and stay together and that's our business and you have nothing to do whatever happens elsewhere.

No, the objective say we can take part of our electricity, we can create it on ours locally and decide locally what we do with it.

We can use to bring doctors to the city.

For instance, sometimes in France, in rural areas, we don't have doctors because they don't want to come.

And so I have met some mayors that said, okay, we will create our own community and we will give electricity for free for doctors that come to our city.

Okay, so actually generating power, it's not anymore the objective.

It's a mean.

It's a mean of doing something else.

And it's something else is solidarity, is sovereignty, is local richness being created.

And so no, we don't want to stay between ourselves.

We want to open to everyone else and say that, hey guys, let's work together.

I like the idea of the doctor of essentially using energy as an incentive.

Like, hey, come stay in our town and you'll get energy.

Like, that's kind of cool, man.

That's the first time I've ever heard of anything like that.

Sometimes we smoke very small towns in France, they don't have any.

The bakery anymore, they don't have nothing anymore.

And so we can decide to say, okay, if we stay, we will help you decreasing your, your costs by providing you local, green and cheap energy.

So, yeah, that's a mean of doing something.

And something is to be decided by the people that are in that territory.

It's not to be imposed by anyone in Paris.

That's the objective.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Wow, that's super cool, dude.

So bring me into where you're at with this.

Obviously it's a pretty big undertaking.

Are you looking for investment support?

You know, I mean, how could our listeners potentially help you today?

Yeah, so we have a few, a few projects that are, that are already in operation.

Okay.

We have a lot that we have been working on.

I mean, they are in the conception phase and today some viewers to accelerate.

We need, if we need some funds, we need to raise money.

And this is where we are today on the road.

We are looking for investors indeed who want to invest on us so we can invest on this project.

So it's kind of different.

It's not a regular startup model of, I would say we are not raising money to burn cash to develop something.

We have already developed everything we need to.

That's what we have done for the past two years.

Everything is in place and we have the first clients, customers.

We have a very good traction from the field, but we need money to accelerate.

And so, yeah, we are looking for investors in France or whatever, in Canada who share the same vision than our vision said this energy transition should not be Something that is imposed should not be something that's bad for everyone.

You need to go to school on horses, etc.

That's not at all our view.

Our view is that in order to do that transition, we cannot look only to the technology and to the way how we produce energy.

We also need to look at how we consume, how we share, because energy is the base of economics, so it cannot be owned by a few only.

So what we propose actually is to change a little bit, a lot the basis of our society, okay?

More decentralization, more democracy, more citizen participation, et cetera.

And this is our view.

And so if we need to change society, let's do something better, okay?

Let's do something that's more equity, that's more open, that's more peaceful.

And so this is our view.

And so we are looking for investors that share those with this view who wants to indeed not only make some money, but also help producing more ecological energy and also who wants to make some more social benefits for everyone.

The transition cannot help, cannot work if it only benefits a few, it must benefit everyone.

And so that's Zambia's mission.

So make an ecological transition, energetic transition, if I can be more precise, that is beneficial for everyone.

If ever there are, I don't know, investors or any kind of entrepreneurs that have some good ideas that are hearing us right now and want to help us achieving this mission, I would be very glad to get a virtual coffee, actually, for the.

At least for the beginning and discuss with them how we could work together.

Amazing.

What would be the best way for our listeners to get in touch with you?

Yeah, they can reach me up in, reach me out in LinkedIn.

I'm really presenting LinkedIn and we have also our website where we can drop a message for the contact, or I can write to myself.

Rafaelambios.fr I can give you the address.

And it would be a pleasure for me to discuss with everyone because I know this model we are trying to develop, we are developing existing friends, exists in Europe, it might exist somewhere else.

And I would be very happy if ever in Canada someone wants to create or to push for government to make it possible to help those people doing that with our experience here.

France is a very complicated country for a lot of loss.

So I'm sure that anywhere else in planet would be easier and they can count on as well on us.

We will be able to help building this model.

For me, it's humanity.

I mean, the values we defend, the values we put in these projects, I think they are universal and they are compatible with every culture and they can be very useful everywhere.

And I really want to see communities and people sharing and deciding their own energetic future on their own everywhere in this country and in this planet.

Amazing.

Amazing.

For all of our listeners, I will make sure that your LinkedIn profile, Rafael and your email are in the show notes and in our post for this.

So if you want to get a hold of him, please do.

He's exceptional.

Rafael, what an amazing conversation.

Thanks for thanks for coming on with us today.

Well, I thank you Kelly, really very much.

I hope people will get some values from our discussion.

I did.

It was again very nice to discuss with you.

I hope one day you will be able to come to Canada and can grab a beer or two together.

It would be a pleasure for me but meanwhile we stay in touch and a pleasure for me to be with you.

And if anyone wants to get in touch to discuss some about energy, entrepreneurship or even aircraft, it would be a pleasure.

Amazing.

Amazing.

That takes us to the end, my friend.

Until next time.

You've been listening to the Business Development Podcast and we'll catch you on the flip side.

This has been the Business Development Podcast with Kelly Kennedy.

Kelly has 15 years in sales and business development experience within the Alberta oil and gas industry and founded his own business development firm in 2020.

His passion is and his specialization is in customer relationship generation and business development.

The show is brought to you by Capital Business Development, your business development specialists.

For more we invite you to the website at www.capitalbd.ca.

see you next time on the Business Development Podcast.