Sorting Not Selling with Josh Braun

Sorting Not Selling with Josh Braun

Kelly Kennedy: Welcome to episode 246 of the Business Development Podcast, and today I'm joined by the legendary Josh Braun. A master sales strategist known for teaching people how to sell without ever feeling pushy or fake. We're breaking down how to ask the right questions, build trust fast and close deals in a way that feels authentic and human.

If you've ever struggled with cold calls, outreach, or getting the real answers from prospects, stick with us. You don't want to miss this episode.

Intro: The Great Mark Cuban once said. Business happens over years and years. Value is measured in the total upside of a business relationship, not by how much you squeezed out in any one deal, and we couldn't agree more.

This is the business development podcast based in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada, and broadcasting to the world. You'll get. Expert business development advice, tips, and experiences, and you'll hear interviews with business owners, CEOs, and business development reps. You'll get actionable advice on how to grow business, brought to you by Capital Business Development Capital bd.ca.

Let's do it. Welcome to the Business Development Podcast, and now your expert host. Kelly Kennedy.

Kelly Kennedy: Hello. Welcome to episode 246 of the Business Development Podcast, and today it is my absolute pleasure to bring you Josh Braun. Josh is a renowned sales strategist, educator, and founder of Braun Training, known for his innovative approach to selling without the sleazy tactic.

With a rich background that spans from teaching elementary school to spearheading sales teams at top tech companies, Josh has mastered the art of combining education and sales to create meaningful connections. He built his career on a simple yet powerful promise. Selling should never feel like selling.

Instead, it should feel like guiding people to discover solutions for themselves. Through his books, courses, workshops, and the Popular Inside Selling podcast, Josh teaches thousands of sales professionals how to detach from outcomes, listen deeply and foster trust leading to genuine win-win sales relationships driven by a passion to revolutionize the sales world.

Josh Braun is on a mission to help people sell with integrity, purpose, and empathy. His methods aren't about convincing or pushing. They're about empowering customers to make decisions that align with their needs and values. And he's not just teaching this, he's living it. Showing the world that you don't have to sell your soul to succeed in sales.

Josh, it's an honor and a privilege to have you on the show today. My gosh, man, like you've been doing this a long time. I should just take a step aside and learn from you.

Josh Braun: I'm all ready. I'm ready to impart, I'm ready. I'm ready.

Kelly Kennedy: You are a teacher. You are a teacher by trade, so man, I'm pumped.

I love chatting sales, I love chatting, business development. It's my world. I've you've got me, you've got me by leaps and bounds, but I've been in this now for about 18 years by the time you do sales and business development together. But it's funny, it's every once in a while I find myself.

Standing in the shoes of Giants and one right in front of me.

Josh Braun: What is it about sales that you like talking about?

Kelly Kennedy: You know what, I love talking about prospecting. I love talking about lead generation. The things that everybody's really afraid of, right? It's like we're, we are afraid to pick up the phone in twenty twenty four, twenty twenty five and beyond.

And I, my goal is to change that. I want people to pick up the phone again. And I think we'll probably get into that today. But, before we do. How did you end up on this path? Who is Josh Bra and how did you end up from teacher to sales strategist?

Josh Braun: So I was two years into getting my doctorate, I was gonna be a principal of an elementary school, and I'm at Boca Point, which is a gym here in Boca, doing a tricep pull down machine.

And there's a guy next to me and I'm overhearing him talk to a friend of his about something called an online homeschool. I had no idea what the word online meant. I don't know what. Technology was at the time, but the online homeschool made my ears perk up. And I struck up a conversation with him and he said, why don't you come over to our business and I can show you what we're working on?

And he was selling online homeschool to kids that were homeschooled. So these are lessons on math, science, social studies. And he goes, you should stop being a principal and you should come here and you should sell stuff to schools because you'd be great at it. 'cause you're a teacher, you put the principal stuff on, pause.

I'll triple your salary, I'll give you all these options and you can work with me and I'll teach you how to sell. And that's what I did. That's what got me out of the classroom and set me on the path of selling. And Scott Udine was a real charismatic guy. And he sold me on leaving my teaching career on that day in the gym.

Kelly Kennedy: Wow. Wow. And you, your parents were teachers too, right?

Josh Braun: My mom was a teacher, yeah. Yeah, she was an elementary school teacher. My dad was an attorney.

Kelly Kennedy: Okay. Okay. My gosh. That must've been like, walk me through that choice. Like you'd already gone to school for this, you were already doing it.

Like my go. What was it like to leave essentially your career for something unknown?

Josh Braun: Yeah. Here's what I discovered. The universe always has your back. There's really no wrong choices. Like even if it doesn't work out, you can learn something and you could always go back. But lamenting over. Should I choose A or B?

I've just never done that.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah.

Josh Braun: Cause I realized pretty early on in my life and in my career that it doesn't really matter. It's all good in the end. So I went with my gut, which was, this guy seems pretty interesting and I could learn a lot from him, and I could always go back.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah.

Josh Braun: And I would regret if I didn't try this, like I always wonder like what would happen if I would've done so?

And again, if it didn't work out, I could have easily have picked up my doctoral program again. I think that's the way it is for every choice. If you're deciding between two jobs and you're like. Should I do this one or that one? It doesn't really matter.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah.

Josh Braun: Honestly, the universe just has your back.

So that's how I live my life. And so it wasn't really a big deal when I chose.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah, I I'm a strong believer of business development chose me. I didn't choose it. I I was running so, so fast, so far from sales, Josh, when I ended back up in business development. I can't even tell you, dude, I I worked on a car lot as a kid I basically parked cars from 16 to 18 and I remember asking at the time, the the manager of the dealership, if I could go into sales when I turned 18, and he looked at me, he is Kelly, I'm not putting you in sales. I was like, dude, I know these cars inside and out. Like I know them better probably than the salespeople do. Like I've been parking them for three years and he looked at me, he goes, go work at Visions for a little bit, which is a Canadian electronic story.

So go work at Visions for a little bit or something like that. Get some sales experience and come back and we'll talk. And so that's what I did. And so at 18 I was working sales, electronic sales. I did that for about six, eight months. Went back, got the job on the car lot. Obviously this would've been.

2008, and we all know what happened in 2008, probably the worst I've ever to get into into car sales. I did that for about six months. I couldn't sell worth crap and had a good time at it, but it was a horrible time to get financing and that was it. I went into part sales after that, did part sales for a few years across Canada.

And then ended up, my sister came to me and was like, Kelly what are you doing? What are you doing with your life? Go to college. Go do something. So I didn't know what I wanted to do. So I went into business school and I did a fast track diploma, got business with the idea of thinking I'm just gonna go work in operations or something.

I'm gonna get a real easy nine to five job where I just gotta make some decisions and go home. And within about two months of starting, a business admin job as an operations guy. I I got found out and they kinda looked at me and said, you're really great at business development and that's what we need.

So can you do business development for us? And I remember Josh sitting down on my computer, this would've been in 2013, say February, 2013, Googling. What the heck is business development and the rest is history. Turned out I was really great at it. I love building relationships. For me, it was just all about establishing relationships with people.

And I did that job for 10 years before I went out on my own and started my own business development firm. But it's funny because almost everybody that I've talked to that's ended up in business development specifically. I always ask them, I said, did you choose this? And they're like, no, man. Like it chose me.

And so like I've just come to the conclusion, like you said, like business development really chooses it chooses you. It's typically not the other way around.

Josh Braun: Not to get too deep here, but I don't think there is actually free will. You think about it, I'm at the gym that day.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah.

Josh Braun: And if not for that guy being there, talking about child, you,

Kelly Kennedy: yeah.

Josh Braun: I'm still a teacher now. Did I choose. To go and have a conversation with Scott Udine? Not really. I was at that gym because my parents were members of that gym, and I happened to be working out at the same time that Scott was working out. Yeah. And so all these things, like we think we have the, it feels like we have control.

It feels like we're deciding Yes. Yeah. But like you're, we're in these events and circumstances and we just don't really have the free will we fall into things.

Kelly Kennedy: Yes.

Josh Braun: And it's all good. Yeah. And so when you went out on your own. What was different about that? As opposed to being, working for a company?

Kelly Kennedy: You know what, I think I was just, I was really afraid it, it was COVID, right? So basically COVID had come along, my boss pulled me aside. I'd been there 10 years, and he just looked at me and said, you've been here a long time. We don't know what the next couple years look like.

Do you have a plan? And thank God he at least gave me the choice. And I was like, you know what? I don't, but I'm gonna figure one out real quick. And for a while I'd thought about going out on my own, doing business development, but like any person who's been in a job a long time, you're like, you're comfortable, right?

You don't shake it up. I I went for it. What was really cool was that boss, he he actually paid me a really nice severance, so I was able to establish a capital business development. And from there he also. Actually offered me my first contract as well to help me get going. So I had, honestly, I had a lot of help the universe was providing.

I definitely agree to that one in that moment. I'm not sure I would've been able to do it without the help that I had at the time, but dude going out on my own was liberating. It really was. I. It changed everything and I didn't realize it. And I always talk to people who are looking to start their own companies and I say, you know what?

You don't realize how much power you have as an individual until you go out and do your own thing. 'cause you have way more than you thought you had. And for me it was incredibly liberating. And now I couldn't imagine doing anything else but. Back then, I remember it being really scary.

Josh Braun: And when you say liberating.

Liberating in what way? Being able to choose your own way?

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah. I think it's being able to succeed for yourself. Being able to succeed for yourself. Being able to choose what is your outcome? Are you going to make those extra sales calls today? Are you gonna close more business?

Do you want more business? Do you want less business? Having that ability to just do what you want, that entrepreneurship offers you is unbelievable.

Josh Braun: Yeah, I agree. For me, the best thing about it is. Not having to ask anyone to take time off, talk about liberating. Like you can not have to ask anyone for time off.

Like, how many of you can say that listening to this, not many of you, that's really freedom. Like just not having to ask someone for time off. And it turns out I think it's actually more secure.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah.

Josh Braun: I thought it would be less secure than a job. But if you think about it, if you're on your own, and again, it's not for everyone, but I dunno, you have, I have hundreds of customers and clients and people that have purchased my stuff.

If I lose one of them. It's okay. There's 98, 97 more.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah.

Josh Braun: But if for whatever reason your company decides to downsize through no fault of your own, you don't have a lot of redundancy. You just have one income stream there. So it's actually, I think, more secure. To be out on your own.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah.

I had a conversation with Liz Ryan about the similar, about a very similar thing and we were just talking about that and how like you really, as an employee, you feel safe, but you can be let go at any, for any reason at any time. Like how, is that any safer than entrepreneurship?

Josh Braun: Yes. I agree.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah. Yeah.

Take us into it like you start, so after that you started Mega Headss. Was that right after this happened for you?

Josh Braun: So that was when I was teaching, so that was before I noticed that at the time the schools were getting a tremendous amount of technology. CD ROMs and computers were hitting all the schools, and specifically in the media centers and libraries, but the teachers had no training on what to do with this stuff.

So it was sitting there collecting dust, and so I approached the school board and offered to rent the space out after school hours to start a summer camp. Where I would expose kids to technology, we would do things like digital photography, digital editing.

Kelly Kennedy: Wow.

Josh Braun: We would do things like, we're processing and audio mixing and photography, Photoshop.

There was a product called Kid Pics, which was like Photoshop for kids and.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah.

Josh Braun: I grew that pretty substantially. I got a pretty good reputation for it. I think I had about four or 500 kids go through it at one point. Wow. Yeah, so that was when I was teaching, I was doing that like on the side.

Summers and after school.

Kelly Kennedy: Wow. Wow. And like digital photography in the ni in the nineties. Really? My gosh.

Josh Braun: Yeah. Yeah. There was a program out there called Kid Pics. For any of you that are old, like I am, you probably remember it. Or you can Google it and you'd be able to bring pictures in. These digital cameras were.

Storing pictures on floppy desks. At the time, the first digital cameras had like literally a floppy drive with a little disk that went in there. And, I'd teach kids, you know how to use them. Yeah. And they were quite capable. And then we had a movie editor called Avid, which was a, one of the first movie editors before Adobe Premier.

And we would write scripts and shoot movies, and we would have premier nights where we'd invite the parents and the parents would watch their kids acting in these movies that they edited. And it was very fulfilling. And I don't know, 10 years afterwards I ran into a couple of the kids when I was at restaurants here in Boca.

Yeah. And they remembered that day and it really stuck with them. So it was it was a good experience.

Kelly Kennedy: Wow. Wow. Yeah. That's unreal. I like, I think back to 1997 to 99, I would've been like 11 years old. Exactly. So I would've been one of those kids. Josh,

Josh Braun: you would've been in the cla You would've been in, you would've been in the camp.

Kelly Kennedy: That's right. Yeah. I remember getting a one of the first little digital cameras that we had for our computer at that time. I think it was like, I think it was like one megapixel, maybe two megapixels. It looked like the blurt crappiest pictures, but I remember thinking it was so cool.

Josh Braun: Amazing.

Kelly Kennedy: It's I think back, to that time to now as a millennial, we've really grown up through this like really weird technological time where we've seen everything before and we see everything now. And like for me, I almost, I lived it and I still find it almost unbelievable where we are at today versus where we were at in like 1997.

It is almost hard to believe how much technology has advanced in that time.

Josh Braun: Agree.

Kelly Kennedy: Josh, I wanna take us in obviously after that you, sorry, you met a gentleman and you became head of growth at Child U.

Josh Braun: Yes. So after I met Scott, I was selling and doing product development for Child U, which eventually got acquired by a company called Compass Learning.

Okay. Which was very big in the sort of K 12 space. And I continued selling, evangelizing, and doing product development for that company as well. Okay.

Kelly Kennedy: Okay. And what was Jelly Vision?

Josh Braun: So when I worked at Compass Learning, one of the jobs that I had was to develop software for kids to teach them how to read.

But I wanted to develop software that would actually be fun to use in entertainment, entertaining. And I remembered when I was young playing a game called You Don't Know Jack, which was a really cool Yes. Trivia game. And I'm like, I wonder if we could use like something like that to teach reading.

So I did a Google search and I found out that it was made by a company called Jellyvision, specifically this guy Harry Gottlieb. And I just picked up the phone and called and Harry picked up the phone and I was freaking out. 'cause he was Nate Shapiro, the voice of, you don't know Jack.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah.

Josh Braun: And we got to talking and Amanda Lant, who was the president or at the time I think, or actually what, she wasn't the president.

She was working there at the time. Yeah, she was the president. She became the CEO later. We got to talking and I hired them to develop educational software. And that's where I met Jellyvision and ended up working for them to help them sell their tool set and also help them sell their agency services.

Wow. So that's where I went after. Compass Learning.

Kelly Kennedy: That's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. I used to play, You Don't Know Jack. That's a great game.

Josh Braun: Great game. Great game.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah. Still a great game actually, I think. Yeah. Still good.

Josh Braun: Holds up. Got a long shelf life.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah. We used to use it for, like corporate training days just to just to unite people.

'cause it's such a fun game to play. Game to play as a group. Great game. Great game. Yeah. I would recommend that to any businesses right now who are looking to unify the company. Have some, You Don't Know Jack Days.

Josh Braun: Yeah. Company's still alive and well that Jackbox games and they've, yeah, they're continuing to.

Pump out game still to this day.

Kelly Kennedy: It is. It is incredible. It is incredible. Take us in from there. You started Inside selling podcast in 2017. Run me through that. Obviously as a podcaster myself, you're seven years into Inside Selling podcast. I'm only like two by the, even by this point I think I'm only about two and a half years in.

So what has it been like to run a podcast for the last seven years? That's amazing.

Josh Braun: Yeah. It's, it's really not that amazing. My podcast is a little bit different than yours. What I don't really very rarely will I ever interview people. It's primarily me just talking about something for two or three minutes.

Each episode is literally between a minute and three minutes long.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah.

Josh Braun: And I'm primarily riffing on something that I wrote or something that I saw, and it's very sporadic. It's not really professionally done at all. Sometimes I'll just record it on my phone and just upload it immediately without editing it.

So it's. It might look like a lot goes into it, but it's very sporadic. At the time, and I just do it whenever I do it. And so it's not as thoughtful as your podcast.

Kelly Kennedy: Oh, no. Not at all. Not at all. Dude. The reality is like I am very young in the podcast side of things, right?

Like I started this show. My original idea was just to do business development, just like you, just to provide advice on business development, right? It's what do I know? What do I wanna do? Do I wanna put myself out there? I remember being really afraid. I almost didn't, I almost stopped at episode three.

Episode three was almost the end of the BDP. I was feeling pretty self-conscious in that moment, and I was like, who am I to do this? Who am I to stand up? But there was just not much in the space, specifically on, on new business development, which is really what I focus on. And I was trying to encourage entrepreneurs, business development people, really to pick up the phone, really to pick up the phone, use your CRMs, pick up the phone, and actually make real connections.

Book real meetings, have lunch with people, see people, right? Like the whole goal of the show is to connect people because that's really what in my mind, business development is. And yeah it started off just the same as you. Providing like weekly information and quickly, I realized, you know what, I think I wanna talk to people too.

As much as I like talking to myself, I really like conversating with people. And so yeah, I quickly did turn into a twice a week show where we do a Wednesday show, which is business development topics, still do that. And where we do a Sunday show, which is expert guest interviews with people like Josh Braun.

Josh Braun: Wow. It's wow. How are you liking it so far? Are you enjoying it?

Kelly Kennedy: I love it, man. If I could do this full time all the time, this is all I'd do. Doesn't pay all the bills yet, but one day maybe.

Josh Braun: You gotta start charging people like me to be like, Hey Josh, it's five grand. Be on my podcast.

Kelly Kennedy: No, i'll never charge people.

My rule from point go is no matter how big this gets, I will, because here's the deal you should be charging me for your time.

Josh Braun: You're right. You know what? I'm sending you Stripe right now. You're making a lot of sense, Kelly.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah. You're sending me an invoice.

Josh Braun: Your making a lot of sense. What am I doing on this podcast for free?

What is wrong with me?

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah, exactly. It's like I interview people like Liz Ryan. I'm sure I probably should have paid a hundred grand for that interview, right? Exactly. But somehow didn't.

Josh Braun: Liz, let's get together. Liz, you and I united front.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah, no, you should. Podcasters out there. Don't charge your guests.

Period. Ever. Horrible plan.

Josh Braun: I agree with you. I agree. I agree.

Kelly Kennedy: No, it's first off, I am standing on, on the shoulders of giants. The reality is podcasting wouldn't be where it's at without people like you. Whether you do three minutes the way I see it, whether you do three minutes, 30 minutes, or an hour and a half, if you're providing value, who cares?

I know I struggled with that for a while. In the beginning I was like is, should my episodes be like longer? Should they be 30 minutes long? But it's like. Who cares if you deliver value and be done. But I know in the beginning, I know I struggled with that for a bit, but I definitely got over it.

Josh Braun: Yeah. And I, my, my take on it's a little bit different. I think you create what you want to create because you want to create it and you don't really think about if it's valuable to someone else, because you don't really control what people find quote unquote valuable or interesting. But if it resonates with you and you want to talk about it, you talk about it.

And then you're onto the next thing. These things are they have such a short shelf life.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah.

Josh Braun: Anyway people have a tendency to overthink it and wanna pull the audience. And what you think I should talk about? Nobody knows. You just, talk about what brings you joy, what is interesting to you, what your perspective is, and share it and enjoy the process of creating it.

And then, keep doing that versus trying to think about. Am I creating value for other people? I have no idea. I don't, I have no idea. I don't control it. I don't focus on it.

Kelly Kennedy: Bring us into broad training, talk to me about, talk to me about that.

Josh Braun: So when I was learning how to sell, I read all the traditional sales books on the market, like I'm sure a lot of people have that have, that are listening to this podcast.

And they all felt very pushy to me. They all relied on approaches and tactics that. I would not want done to me. And because they didn't feel good on my soul, I wasn't having a lot of success when I was trying to do them to other people. At the same time I was going through a situation, 'cause I had just lost my dad and I was having a real hard time with it.

So I was in therapy with a psychologist and a light bulb moment went off for me when I was in therapy, which was that the therapist wasn't really trying to sell me on change. She wasn't trying to convince me to do anything.

It was actually the opposite of that. She was listening and understanding and asking very deliberate questions to get me to discover my own motivations for potential change, and I was dissecting the questions she was asking me as I was being treated, thinking to myself.

This has applicability for selling this idea that you shift from making statements to asking questions that get people to think differently about their current situation. I'll just give you like a quick example. So imagine that you are selling a new product to wash cars. The normal, traditional approach is I gotta come up with my value proposition.

We help people wash their cars in a way that gets their car cleaner so much faster and shinier than any other approach you've ever used. And that's an approach based on explaining and pitching and trying to convince.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah.

Josh Braun: The problem is no matter what you sell, people are washing their car today and nobody wants to be convinced.

So what the psychologist would do. It's something very different. She would say something like this Hey Josh, I know you wash your car with a bucket and a sponge. What we're often seeing when that happens is dirt and grit can get trapped in the sponge because it settles to the bottom of the bucket, which can scratch your car.

How are you making sure that doesn't happen when you wash your car and in that moment you're scratching your head thinking? I'm not sure. What do you mean? Then you could say, oh, you've probably heard of the Grit guard, which is a device that goes in the bucket, like a cheese grater, and you rub your sponge on it so the dirt settles to the bottom of the bucket off the sponge and off your car.

And I might say no, what is that? Or I might say, yeah, I looked into it. To which you might say, oh, sounds like it wasn't a fit for you. Sounds like the value wasn't there for you. It's an approach based on pulling information out versus pushing information in. That formed the basis of my approach for Braun Training, which is to be able to sell in ways without convincing, pushing, and begging by asking questions and leaning back and detaching from the outcome so that people are more likely to open up and discover for themselves why they might wanna switch.

Because what I learned in psychology from my psychologist. Pretty early on is people are more motivated to change for reasons they discover. And they say versus what sellers say that are biased.

Kelly Kennedy: Wow. Wow. Walk me through the first time that you tried this strategy. Like how did you implement it?

What? Walk me through it.

Josh Braun: Yeah. The first time I tried it was when I was a seller at Jellyvision. So that was an agency and that. Agency turned into a SaaS company selling an HR solution. So if you can imagine when employees go to work during open enrollment, they have to select what benefit plan they want to be on.

And if you've ever been through that experience, the companies will send you all this information. And it has a lot of jargon in it that you might not understand and you might not know what benefits to select. So you gotta go hit up the HR department.

And if you have thousands of employees, that's a big burden on the team.

Or you have people that are not even in the office, they're remote workers, like if you're Comcast, and it's hard to get that information out. So we had a way to be able to explain benefits to people in a way that they could understand so that they would choose the right healthcare plan. Now.

Different people in that organization care about different things, like A CFO doesn't care about that, but a benefits director might. Yeah. So if I call the CFO a CFO knows that benefits are expensive and we had a way to offset those costs because we had more people moving into FSA plans, which reduces the tax liability.

So I would call A CFO and rather than pitching, I would say something like this to him. Hey John. We know that benefit costs are. Going up every year typically by nine to 12%. How are you going about offsetting those costs today? And he would just, or she would scratch her head and go, I don't know.

What do you mean? Have you heard of virtual benefits counselors? What are those? They help move more people into FSA, so you can reduce your tax liability. How does it work? You see what we're doing here? We're not telling, we're asking questions to elicit a response. And so that's an example of early on, what I would do, I'd call benefits directors, and I would say, Hey John typically benefits directors when they communicate benefits they're using like newsletters or intranets or company meetings.

How are you guys going about communicating benefits today? So what I would do is I would proactively address. Of the current ways. So that would eliminate any kind of objection around we doing it this way. Yeah. Then from there I would ask a question how are you going about moving more people into FSAs today?

Do you have a way to increase that participation? What do you mean? Oh, you've probably heard of a virtual benefits counselor. What's that? And now we're in a conversation and they're leaning forward.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah.

Josh Braun: So it's this idea of asking questions. To make people scratch their head and think differently.

C2FO's one of my clients, one of the questions they came up with at the workshop, which is opening up so many doors, is John, how are you currently getting access to working capital when you don't wanna take on more debt or pledge assets?

These guys sell advanced payment of invoices. That's gonna make, like how do I get capital right now? I have to either have to pledge assets or go into debt. What do you mean? Like of course I need those two things. What? What do you have? What are you suggesting? Oh, you've probably heard of prepayment invoices.

Yeah, I've heard of it. Oh, it sounds like the value wasn't there for you. It wasn't that it's X, Y, and Z. So it's coming up with these questions that are neutral questions that are not leading questions.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah.

Josh Braun: That make people think a little differently about their current solution. And that's the art of.

Cold calling. These, what I call illumination questions are poking to bear.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I love that. I also love your line. Sounds like the value wasn't there for you. That's, I wanna single in on that. I wanna single in on that. What's the importance of that line?

Josh Braun: So what we're trying to do is take an educated guess as to why the person didn't buy.

So chances are if you're selling to someone who's been in rev ops for 20 years and they're calculating commissions using spreadsheets. They know that their commission process and calculating commissions can be automated. So I'm not gonna vomit Captivate IQ at them and educate them on automating spreadsheets.

It's gonna bruise their ego. So I would say to them, Hey, Kelly, when you calculate commissions, are you guys using spreadsheets like Excel or Google Sheets, or is it automated? Oh, we're using spreadsheets. Oh, you've probably looked into automating it. Of course we have, and now I'm gonna take a guess as to why they didn't switch.

And if I guess wrong, they're gonna correct me. I'd say, oh, your rules for commissions were probably too complex to be automated. It's not that it's actually X, Y, and Z. Oh, sounds like the value. The price was too high. It's not that. Yeah, the price was too high, and now you can see if you can create some kind of an information gap.

Maybe there's a reason why they didn't automate it, and maybe that's not a fit for you. Which is a perfectly good outcome if determined early. It's terrible if determined late. So these are not meant to close people or to move anything forward, it's just meant to get to more truth.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah.

Josh Braun: And when you have more truth, you have more trust. And when you have more trust, you can determine which deals are worth focusing on, which ones aren't. You're sorting, not selling.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah. And actually when you're saying that, when you're essentially making like a presumption, if you are wrong, they almost feel compelled to correct you.

Josh Braun: People love correcting.

Kelly Kennedy: I recently interviewed Jack Schafer again on his book, the Truth Detector. I don't know if you ever read The Like Switch, but he's an ex FBI agent. He wrote a book on essentially psychology and he talks about a lot in The Like Switch, but in The Truth Detector, he really gets into the power of elicitation techniques.

And one of them is the it's the presuming. It's essentially like making a presumption. Statement saying this, but it, but doing it wrong intentionally. And it's almost the exact same thing. You're not quite doing that, but it's very similar.

Josh Braun: Yeah. I'm not doing it. Yeah. I'm not doing it intentionally.

I'm gonna list out, when I do these workshops, what we do is we list out all of the reasons why people resist and we bring them up proactively. Because if they're not there, you can't bring them up. People will say that's not it. It's actually this. And another simple example, if you're selling an iPod in 2007.

Nobody's sitting around, not listening to music. If they're runners, if your ICP is people that run with music, you're gonna call and you're gonna say, Hey, Josh, when you go running today, are you carrying around a CD player or are you using something like a Dooma Nomad or Diamond Rio MP three Player? Oh, I'm using a Diamond MP three player.

Those players are so popular. They pretty much created the the category. How do you like it? That's fine. It's okay. Now here's the question, right? The illumination question. So as when that came out, had 32 megabytes of ram, which means it holds 30 minutes of music. If you don't mind me asking, Josh, when you go on your long two hour runs, how are you dealing with that?

Are you like swapping your music out or are you like listening to the same songs on repeat? I guess I just listened to the same songs over and over again. Oh, you've probably looked into an iPod. Yeah, I've looked into it. Oh, it was too expensive. It wasn't that it was too expensive. I'm on a Windows machine.

This person has an information gap.

They think that it only works on a Windows machine. On only works on a Mac, not a Windows machine. Or there's a perfectly good reason why they didn't get it, which is, Hey Josh, I only have 10 minutes of music and I never go from more than 15 minute runs, at which case, it's not a problem and your solution has no value without a problem.

Again, it gets back to detaching from the outcome and letting go of assumptions and discovering if there's a potential problem. The word potential matters because it's only a problem if the prospect says it's a problem. Not because you think it's a problem. Okay.

Kelly Kennedy: No, this, it sounds like what you're really trying to do is you're using a lot of questions to essentially try to get to the objections, like you said ahead, so that you can get them out of the way.

Walk me through this though, let's say that we have a company right now and they sell, let's call it let's call it maintenance services to oil and gas companies, Alberta and Alberta, Canada problem. Right now they're selling maintenance services. It might be manpower, it might be a product of some type.

And right now they'll show up and they will provide a rate sheet to this company and they'll say, Hey, John, us maintenance company, X, Y, Z, we're competing against probably 10 or 15 other maintenance companies in the city, all providing relatively the same services. How can they use this technique to stand out?

They're already having meetings, but no, they are definitely not doing it in this way. They're definitely not using this tactical approach to it. How would you sell, let's call it, let's just make it easy, manpower Services. How would you sell Manpower Services to a company that could buy Manpower services from 15 other companies?

Josh Braun: So lemme tell you a quick story and then we'll relate it to Manpower Services. So several years ago I was in the mall with my wife. Town Center Mall, Boca, I didn't need anything. She was returning some items. We were gonna grab dinner at True Food, which is in the mall, and to just kill some time. I walked into a fit to run store, not needing anything.

If the store associate said, what brings you in today?

Kelly Kennedy: What do you think? I would've said, I'm just here to kill some time.

Josh Braun: Just kill some time. If she said, do you have any problems? What do you think? I would've said,

Kelly Kennedy: no.

Josh Braun: If she said, we got these new Brooks sneakers that can help you run further, faster. What do you think?

I would've said?

Kelly Kennedy: Let's see them.

Josh Braun: Not really, because I have sneakers and I'm not really interested in running further, faster. Okay. But she didn't do any of those things.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah.

Josh Braun: Instead she looked down at my sneakers. She goes, are you a runner? And I go, I am. She goes, are you training for any raises? And I go, I'm actually training for my first half marathon.

And she said, oh, you've probably had a running gate test. I said, what's that? And moments later, I'm on a treadmill in the store. I have video of this if you wanna see it for the show notes.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah.

Josh Braun: And she freezes the frame of the video. She zooms in on my ankles and she goes, you notice how your ankles are over pronating when you run?

And I said, yes. So she goes the problem is if you run in sneakers that are not made for pronated feet, you can get injuries like plantar fasciitis and runner knee. I could take a look at your sneakers to see if they're made for pronated feet. And about six minutes later, I'm spending $178 on new sneakers and insoles.

Kelly Kennedy: Wow.

Josh Braun: So the lesson here is no matter what you sell, whether it's maintenance or sneakers or podcast editing software or anything, nobody's sitting around without sneakers. Everybody has a solution in place today, just like you, you're using Riverside fm. Yeah. You're comfortable with your current solution.

So in order for you to stand out, you need to ask a question that shines a light on the terrible, no good, very bad thing that happens. Someone does nothing. So you have to figure out what is it about what you are selling? That what, that they're not selling that can hurt them. And the hurt is really important because people are more likely to change based on something that they're losing versus gaining.

It's something called loss aversion prospecting theory. Kettleman, if you guys were want to, Daniel Kettleman, if you guys wanna geek out on this, but you can't ask it in the leading way. So without knowing the product, it would be hard to say, but it's the same thing with the shoes and the same thing with the car wash bucket.

So how are you dealing with those situations where you're washing your car with one bucket without scratching it? You have to know what is the problem with the current way. Now, if there's no problem with the current way, there's no reason for someone to switch. You are not switching from Riverside to the script unless I can illuminate a potential problem.

Kelly Kennedy: Yes, sure.

Josh Braun: So I might say to you, Kelly, typically when I talk to podcasters, they record episodes on Riverside, and then they have to go in and figure out the clips they're gonna select to edit and promote. How are you going about doing that today on Riverside? Like how do you do that today, Kelly?

Kelly Kennedy: Well, right now Riverside actually has an automatic clip creator.

Josh Braun: Okay. Great. No problem.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah.

Josh Braun: So how are you going about how do you transcribe the videos?

Kelly Kennedy: I actually use the script to transcribe the videos.

Josh Braun: You use the script to transcribe the videos?

Kelly Kennedy: Yes.

Josh Braun: And you it sounds like you're probably, you probably know that the script also has a.

Podcast recorder called Squad Cast.

Kelly Kennedy: Yes, I do.

Josh Braun: You're comfortable with Riverside? Yes. That's why you haven't switched.

Kelly Kennedy: That's right.

Josh Braun: What is it about Riverside?

Kelly Kennedy: You know what, I think it's just that I've had it since the beginning and I haven't explored what squad cast could do for me.

Josh Braun: So typically when people use Riverside, they're paying anywhere from 50 to $60 every single month.

How long have you been using Riverside for?

Kelly Kennedy: Two years.

Josh Braun: Two years. So you're paying $60 a month, is that what you're paying for? Do you know how much you're paying for it?

Kelly Kennedy: It's a really good question. I don't have the exact number, but yeah, you're probably pretty close. You're probably about, it's probably about 50 bucks, 60 bucks a month.

Sure.

Josh Braun: Would you be open to keeping Riverside and recording a demo podcast with squad cast? Just to see if there's an opportunity for you to do the same exact job. Without losing $60 every single month. Is that something you'd be open to experimenting with?

Kelly Kennedy: That is very compelling.

Josh Braun: So it's com it's, it's a, it's an, I'm not asking you to quit it or walk away. I'm giving you the choice, but that's the idea. It's like you're losing $60 potentially every six now. You might not care about the $60 'cause it's I just don't wanna deal with it. It's so comfortable, but you might care about it.

And I'm looking for people that might care about it.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah. Yeah. No it's a very different, very passive way. Yes. But you're right. But it's also very compelling. It's not like it's less compelling. I would say that it's equally compelling, if not more compelling than the direct approach.

I actually agree with you. Walk me through how you generate the questions, because I think that ends up being a bit of a challenge for a lot of people. Walk me through, how do you come up with the right questions for your product and service?

Josh Braun: You don't, you find them? You have to interview customers that switched using something called jobs to be done.

So people that have purchased within the last 30 to 45 days, there's a interview approach called Jobs to Be Done, and it's the only approach that I know that gets to the causal reasons of why people switched. And people will tell you what the events and circumstances were that it caused enough dominoes to tip over, and you'll use those words.

Your cold call tracks for your illumination questions, and then your cold emails. So good. Cold email copy isn't written. It's not how you speak. It's actually found, it's actually lifted from the voice of customers, not marketing stuff that actually customers actually say in quotes is how you start to formulate those questions.

Kelly Kennedy: Oh my goodness. Let's spend some time there. 'cause I get questions about that all the time. Kelly, how do you do your cold email reach outs? And I wanna hear from you 'cause I know it sounds like you've really got it nailed down. So walk me through it. How do you do your cold email reach outs?

Josh Braun: I don't do them.

I find quotes, so I'll give you an example. A few months ago, a friend of mine asked me to go fly fishing. I had never been fly fishing before. I started googling a bunch of stuff. One of the things you realize pretty quickly about fly fishing as I was preparing for it, is you have to tie these knots to attach the fly to the tipt or the line.

And this stuff is very thin and it's sunny out, and the flies are super small, and I don't have as, as good a vision as I did when I was younger and I don't have the motor skills, so I can tie these knots, but it takes me like 15, 20 minutes to tie 'em. So I got this outreach and it said something like this Josh, you shouldn't have to spend 10 to 15 minutes tying Orvis and triple surgeon nuts from the back of your truck.

Now that's very specific. That's something a customer said that switched over to something called the Not Needle, which is a needle that allows you to tie your knots so that you can spend less time tying knots and more time fishing. Yeah. It's a testimonial on the Not Needle website from a customer that switched, and you just take that and you lift those words and you paste them into your cold emails.

Kelly Kennedy: Wow.

Josh Braun: If you are trying to write the words yourself using templates. Or using a cold email course and someone's giving you words and frameworks, you're doing it wrong because that's not how your customers speak. You can't write those emails. Your customers are better at writing them than you are. You've gotta find the quotes from customer testimonials, case studies, customer interviews, listening in on calls, on discovery calls, and you create something called a lingo library, and you put these quotes in there and then you lift them and you.

You literally pace them in.

Kelly Kennedy: Wow. Wow. Yeah. 'cause I'll tell you what, I'm getting a lot of crap outreach on my LinkedIn. Like a lot of AI crap outreach at this point. Like you can tell they're not even written thoughtfully. They're just, somebody asked for a line on, on, on ChatGPT, and I'm getting the direct line, what's your approach to AI these days?

Josh Braun: What do you mean my approach to, I'm not quite,

Kelly Kennedy: Do you utilize it at all for any of your any of your your copy?

Josh Braun: So I use it when I write posts on LinkedIn. So I will usually write a draft and I will ask chat GPT for some different variations of different language. I'll also use it when I'm researching a target account.

I'll go in there and I'll try to understand how people are currently getting the job done and I'll get real detailed. And what's the problem with the current way? That is not as good as hearing from a customer that actually paid money to switch. It's a very different thing. Customers just talk differently.

I'll give you another example. When I was training for a triathlon this Ironman race, which is a long distance triathlon I write about this stuff. So I got a call from someone who's a triathlon coach in Boca, and I'll never forget what he said. He says, Hey, Josh I know you're training for your first Ironman.

Not sure about you, but that typically means you're eating every Snickers bar in the house. You're having dinner by four o'clock at night. There's no more date night. You're gonna sleep at 6:00 PM I call that divorce by triathlon. How does that compare to your experience? And I'm like, dude, where did you divorce by triathlon?

That's what I'm thinking, like in my head. He goes, oh, a customer said that. ChatGPT is not spitting that out.

Kelly Kennedy: No.

Josh Braun: That's coming from a customer's voice that's very visceral. It's gonna make someone feel a certain way.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah.

Josh Braun: So you've gotta do the work of talking to customers. That's the one thing that's never gonna change in sales.

You're gonna have chat, GT four, and Claude and all these things, and holograms and videos, but what's never gonna change is the customer.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah.

Josh Braun: The immense circumstances that what they say caused them to switch away from something and hire something else.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah. Like when you say divorce by triathlon, I immediately get an emotional response to that.

Josh Braun: It's visceral. It's visceral.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah. And you're right, you don't get that from a chat GPT line.

Josh Braun: It's not really. Not really, no. My gosh, not really. No.

Kelly Kennedy: My gosh. You know what's funny, dude? I've been doing this a long time. I've never and I've heard, I ask a lot of questions when I'm dealing with prospects.

I'm asking a lot of questions, trying to get to the understanding, but I've never thought about it in this way. It's very unique. Let's say that I do have that customer referral or I have that that testimonial. How do you then take the customer's testimonial? And I, it sounds like you're doing a bit of the wordsmithing to get it to fit when you're reaching out to another customer, but talk to me a little bit about that wordsmithing process.

Josh Braun: Yeah, so I, I use something called four T email. So the first T stands for the trigger or the observation. Hey Josh, looks like you're going to Casper Wyoming on a fly fish trip. And the reason that you wanna start with an observation is something called social loafing. Which is people are more inclined to pay attention to something that they feel that they're uniquely qualified to pay attention to.

Why are you emailing me versus anybody else? So there's all sorts of ways that this is not notice you like to post. This is something that has to relate to the problem. So Josh looks like you're going to, Casper, Wyoming to fly fish with Marty. How are you ensuring. You're not spending 10 plus minutes sitting in the back of your trunk tying knots instead of fishing.

That's the illumination question. And then we're gonna go into what it is. Over 3000 beginner fly fishers are, using the knot needle allows you to tie a knot using a needle, so you spend less time tying knots, more time fishing. I think this might come in handy, like that's the gist of the email the trigger event.

The question that makes people think third party credibility, and does it make sense to talk And it's, four or five sentences. Yeah, same kind of structure, but you gotta have a good sense of what's meaningfully different compared to how they're doing it today. And you gotta be specific. And with a knot needle you tie knots with a tool that looks like a needle so you can actually see what you're doing.

Maybe you include even a picture of it in this case, right? So you're gonna explain how it works, which is gonna make it more. Believable and credible. I get so many emails about, we have this AI generated thing that's gonna help you write posts. I'm like how does it work? And so it doesn't sound believable or credible.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah. Yeah.

Josh Braun: So the phrase that I like to use is in emails, it involves a tool. It looks like a needle, just like you would sew it sew so that you can actually see what you're doing with the line. It involves.

Kelly Kennedy: You're painting the picture. You're actually you're actually, it works Showing them how it actually works.

Josh Braun: How it works. Yeah, how it works. So when you're more crispy or specific, you're more believable. Yeah.

Kelly Kennedy: It's so more specific. Simple. But it's so simple. Why do we miss this? Why are we not all, why do we not like automatically clue into this? Josh, why is this not automatic for all of us?

Josh Braun: You can't get better at something that you haven't been taught and practiced.

I sometimes will get asked by companies to come in and critique cold emails, and I don't like doing it. It's critiquing me on the piano if I've never played the piano before.

Like in order for you, if you went to the gym and you've not worked out before and the trainer said, I'm gonna critique your pushup and you've never done a pushup before, how would you know how to do one?

So you gotta model what good is. Yeah. Here's how you do a pushup and here's why it's a good pushup. Now you do one and I'm gonna score you based on what you're, what good is. So in order to get good at something or anything, piano cold emails. Explaining something like most people don't know how to explain what they do.

That's not their fault. They have not been taught how to explain something in a way that's clear and compelling. You can teach someone how to explain something.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah.

Josh Braun: Hey Josh. Here's how to explain what phone ready leads is. Josh, you know how your salespeople will make 50 calls, and even if they have direct numbers, if they're lucky, they'll only have one or two conversations.

With phone ready leads, your reps make the same 50 dials, but instead of only having one or two conversations, they have 10 to 12 generally speaking. Does that sound interesting or not really? That's a way to explain something before and after. I can teach that to you and then we can learn and apply how you solve that pro a problem like that.

But I have to teach that to you first. So to answer your question, the reason people don't do it is because they take writing emails for granted.

They do it so many times that they think they know how to do it, but unless you realize it's a skill Yeah. That can be learned and mastered. You can't get better at it.

And whether it use this framework that we're talking about or somebody else's, you have to have, what good is anything with a cold call and the discovery call or it's good. Yeah.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah.

Josh Braun: But whenever I get, conversations with sales managers and they say, our reps are terrible at discovery calls, I say do they know what good is?

Have you taught what good is? And the answer usually is everyone's doing their own thing. I go how can you expect them to be better? Good at it? They dunno what good is.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah. Josh, we're talking to a lot of entrepreneurs right now, a lot of salespeople, a lot of business development people who maybe are fresh to it, maybe they've been at it a long time, and they're really like, this approach sounds awesome.

How do I get started in it? Like what advice would you give them to start going down this path?

Josh Braun: So my first advice would be to get closer to the customer. Get off LinkedIn. Don't buy any courses. Don't buy any books. Just get closer to the customer. What I mean by that is start a document called Lingo Library and find out what jobs specifically that your prospects wanna get done.

Your former customers. Find out how your customers were getting the job done before they switched detailed and then. What happened that caused the current way not to work anymore? No, nobody wakes up one day and decides to switch. There's a story, a rich story of a lot of events and circumstances that happen, and you'll interview four or five customers and you'll start to get a sense of the journey.

From there things get a lot easier. There's frameworks that I use or lots of other people, but unless you have this part of it, the frameworks are not gonna be able to help you. Then you just plug what you learned into these, either cold email or cold call talk tracks. You make some calls, you have some conversations, and if the message is resonating.

Kelly Kennedy: So it involves you having to go back to your past, your current or past clients and saying, Hey, do you mind telling me in writing or over voice? I guess we record it, why you switched to us.

Josh Braun: You can't ask that question. Yeah, you can't ask that question.

Kelly Kennedy: Okay.

Josh Braun: People won't be able to tell you. So without getting too detailed, there's a, there's an approach called Jobs to be Done. I'll give you an example just so you can see. So I was at base camp with Bob Moesta and he asked the audience what's something that you recently bought? And someone said, I just bought a nightlight for my book.

And if you asked him why you bought it, he would say I just wanted to read at night, but when you do a jobs to be done interview with him, this is what you learn. He was actually in bed. Every time he would turn the lamp on, his wife would get upset 'cause she couldn't go to bed. And she would leave and she would sleep in another room.

And this was causing a little friction in the marriage. 'cause they weren't sleeping together.

Kelly Kennedy: Yes.

Josh Braun: So he found this nightlight. And when he turned the nightlight on, she was able to sleep and he was able to read in bed and they still were able to sleep in the same bed. That is a very different marketing message.

That's why you can't tell, ask why. So jobs to be done is like making a document, Hey, take me back. When did you buy the nightlight? What was going on that caused you to start to look at the nightlight? I was in bed with my wife and I couldn't, so what did you do? I went to the other, bedroom.

And then what happened? Then what happened? Then what happened? They're like, oh, versus why did you buy? People really won't be, and you also can't ask people this if the story's not fresh. You gotta interview people that bought within the last 30 to 45 days, people that were involved in the decision making process, not the end users of the product.

So there's a little bit of, you could read up on jobs to be done. It's probably beyond the scope of this podcast, but it is a Sure, a tech, an interview technique that is a very. Challenging to learn.

Kelly Kennedy: No kidding.

Josh Braun: But it's the only way that I know to get this, to get the real story.

Kelly Kennedy: Yes. Yes. And do you teach this interview technique?

Josh Braun: No.

Kelly Kennedy: No. I thought that would be worth asking.

Josh Braun: No, I don't teach it. I don't teach it. I do have something called the Jobs to Be Done Guide and my badass B2B growth guide, but I don't teach it as a immersive, no.

Kelly Kennedy: Okay. No, that's fair. That's fair. Josh, when should when should we be asked.

Our customers about this, like you said, like 30 to 45 days after the point of sale. Should we line up like an interview with them? Yes. How does that work exactly?

Josh Braun: Yeah. Yes.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah.

Josh Braun: If you can't, if you can't do that, you don't have access to that. Next best thing is mining, customer testimonials for things in quotes.

Again a matter thing you could do is listen in on, CM conversations, discovery calls, inbounds are okay, but the person hasn't bought yet. So you're gonna get some of the struggle moments, but you might not get the final domino tipping over 'cause they haven't bought. But you might get some stuff if the rep is like asking the right questions.

Hey John what motivated you to wanna talk to us today? What are you currently using? When did you first realize it wasn't working for you? What did you try? I wanna understand like what was going on and it's usually some event that changed in their life. We were using whiteboards to manage projects.

Then we have five remote workers now and they can't see the whiteboard. So we needed some kind of solution that allowed 'em to see the projects and the status. So we started looking for things online. There's always like an event like that, that changes.

And that helps you target who to reach out to.

The second thing is to make sure that you're actually targeting lookalike audiences. So people that are getting the most value outta your product, like highest lifetime value, use a product like ocean. Or LinkedIn can help a little bit with this to find accounts and people that are just like them.

'cause chances are they've had similar struggles.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah. My gosh. Josh. This has been absolutely amazing. First off, thank you so much for coming on and chatting this with me and before we close off the show today, I just wanna chat a little bit about Braun Training, the services you offer, and I'd love to chat about your book.

Josh Braun: Yeah, so I have a free book. It's How to Sell Without Pushing, Convincing, or Begging. It's called For Sale. It's free. You can access it at JoshBraun.com/shop and check it out. I also have a podcast called Inside Selling, and I write pretty frequently on LinkedIn as well. And of course I have a newsletter you can sign up on my website as well.

Kelly Kennedy: Amazing. And what's the best way for people to get ahold of you?

Josh Braun: I would say follow me on LinkedIn and subscribe to my newsletter. My phone number's on my website too, my email address if you wanna get in touch with me that way as well.

Kelly Kennedy: We've been chatting with Josh Braun and if you have a chance, go check out Inside Selling 'cause it's probably a podcast you're gonna like.

Until next time you've been listening to the Business Development Podcast, we'll catch you on the flip side.

Outro: This has been the Business Development Podcast with Kelly Kennedy. Kelly has 15 years in sales and business development experience within the Alberta oil and gas industry, and founded his own business development firm in 2020.

His passion and his specialization is in customer relationship generation and business development. The show is. Brought to you by Capital Business Development, your Business Development Specialists. For more, we invite you to the website @ www.capitalbd.ca. See you next time on the Business Development Podcast.